Mono Vinyl Playback

[timztunz]

I would like to pose some notions that I have formed from different sources (or perhaps they are misconceptions?) and then ask some questions of this esteemed group.
1) Mono records made prior to 1967-68 were made using a mono cutting head and benefit greatly from being played back with a mono cartridge.
2) Mono records made AFTER 1967-68 were made using a stereo cutting head and do not benefit at all from being played back with a mono cartridge. That in many cases just playing them back with a stereo cartridge is good enough. However, if they are a little bit noisy doing that you need only to engage a mono button (if you have one) or by summing the channels with a double Y connection scheme.
2a) Is there some way to know if a mono record that was made in the transition period of 1967-68 used a mono cutting head or a stereo cutting head?
3) Depending on the mono cartridge, you might even do damage to a "modern cut" mono record (cut with a stereo cutting head) by playing it back with a mono cartridge.
4) I have a Miyajima Zero mono cartridge. If #3 is true, is that cartridge one of the ones that could cause damage?
5) If the Miyajima Zero IS a candidate for damaging a modern cut mono, are there other mono cartridges that DON'T pose this danger?
6) If #2 is true and the best way to listen to a modern cut mono is with a stereo cartridge with the channels summed using a double Y connection scheme, should the double Y connection go into the phono stage, line stage or it doesn't matter?
7) My phono stage has 3 inputs. If the answer to #6 is either a) going into the phono stage or b) it doesn't matter, then can I connect the double Y's to the 3rd input and run a ground wire from the stereo ground lug on input 1 to the ground lug for Input 3? That way if I play a mono record made before 1967-68 I can use the mono cart. If I play a mono record made after 1967-68 I can swap the phono cables (coming from the tonearm) from Input 1 to the double Y connection on Input 3.

Whew! This all makes my head hurt. Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

We need the General to help you for this interesting question. Will text him tomorrow morning in case he doesn’t see the post.

 

[UEM]

timztunz,


A True MONO Generator (cartridge) allows only horizontal movement of the stylus.
Hence, with a “true Mono” LP, any vertical kind of noise (dirt, scratches, etc) would not, or only minimally, be picked up:
Better “quieter” sound would be the likely result.

If however, the musical content would consist of vertical components, such in a stereo record, damage could occur, if played with such a true Mono generator.


Be aware, that not all cartridges sold as “Mono” are really such “True Mono Generators” ! Some simply bridge the channels, and vertical noise ( or music ?) components would still be picked up and create disturbances.

From what I just read, your Miyajima Zero mono is a "True Mono Generator "- hence any vertical movement is blocked.
(I admit, I don’t know what impact has the use of stereo cutting head, operating in Mono mode.,

Regards

Urs

PS: Look at this link, which shows an other option for special wiring a stereo cartridge to read horizontal mono records
https://www.tsf36.fr/erepro2.htm

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Tim,

The General probably will have one of the largest mono collections in the world and he believes in using the best stereo cart you can get and use it to play mono (as mono carts can be limited). His Thomas Mayer phono does not have a mono switch

However, one session I was at Bill's we did try playing mono with the stereo cart (madake) on Bill's and it sounded fuzzy until we switched on the mono switch - this was with the NVO Spa II SE.

Another friend here has a a SPU and a Madake for his stereo, and the Miyajima zero 1.0 and 0.7 for his monos (the 0.7 is for new and old monos, while the 1.0 is optimized for older/true monos (done with mono cutting heads), as per Miyajima. We found the stereo carts to be better through his EAR 912 phono, until he got both the stereo and the mono SUTs. We found the mono SUT to have a higher impact and now mono sounded better with the Miya Zero 1.0. Would improving the stereo cart have tilted the balance again for the stereo cart to sound better on mono? I do not know.

Number95 on this forum told me he prefers his Miya Zero for monos to his stereo carts, which are Zyx Uni P and Ikeda Kai. IIrc he uses one of top AR models for phono.

I think the reason for these varied opinions are probably based on the combo of the stereo carts and phono people are using...possibly some do not do mono well, tilting the favor in balance of the true mono set up. Either way, since you already have the Miya Zero carts, best is to play your monos on stereo carts and the Miya zero and see for yourself.

Do not use the Miyajima mono carts on stereo records, that is all. Apparently mono carts like Lyra can also be used on stereo records without damaging them. Whether they sound as good as the Miya Zero on the mono records I do not know.

One advice the General will give you is to first set up the system (speaker positioning) to play mono, then overlay it with stereo. That might help in using stereo carts for mono playback

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would like to pose some notions that I have formed from different sources (or perhaps they are misconceptions?) and then ask some questions of this esteemed group.
1) Mono records made prior to 1967-68 were made using a mono cutting head and benefit greatly from being played back with a mono cartridge.
2) Mono records made AFTER 1967-68 were made using a stereo cutting head and do not benefit at all from being played back with a mono cartridge. That in many cases just playing them back with a stereo cartridge is good enough. However, if they are a little bit noisy doing that you need only to engage a mono button (if you have one) or by summing the channels with a double Y connection scheme.
2a) Is there some way to know if a mono record that was made in the transition period of 1967-68 used a mono cutting head or a stereo cutting head?
3) Depending on the mono cartridge, you might even do damage to a "modern cut" mono record (cut with a stereo cutting head) by playing it back with a mono cartridge.
4) I have a Miyajima Zero mono cartridge. If #3 is true, is that cartridge one of the ones that could cause damage?
5) If the Miyajima Zero IS a candidate for damaging a modern cut mono, are there other mono cartridges that DON'T pose this danger?
6) If #2 is true and the best way to listen to a modern cut mono is with a stereo cartridge with the channels summed using a double Y connection scheme, should the double Y connection go into the phono stage, line stage or it doesn't matter?
7) My phono stage has 3 inputs. If the answer to #6 is either a) going into the phono stage or b) it doesn't matter, then can I connect the double Y's to the 3rd input and run a ground wire from the stereo ground lug on input 1 to the ground lug for Input 3? That way if I play a mono record made before 1967-68 I can use the mono cart. If I play a mono record made after 1967-68 I can swap the phono cables (coming from the tonearm) from Input 1 to the double Y connection on Input 3.

Whew! This all makes my head hurt. Thanks for any help you can offer.

I would like to pose some notions that I have formed from different sources (or perhaps they are misconceptions?) and then ask some questions of this esteemed group.
1) Mono records made prior to 1967-68 were made using a mono cutting head and benefit greatly from being played back with a mono cartridge.
>>>true, but it’s not that simple. Sometimes even early mono pressings are better on a stereo cartridge. My experience with my 350-400 early mono pressings is that about 90% sound better with my Miyajima Labs Premium Be, but for whatever reason not all conformed to that result. to be fair; i was comparing a $1200 retail mono cart to a $15k stereo cartridge. a more clear truth would be a mono and stereo version of the same cartridge.<<<<.
2) Mono records made AFTER 1967-68 were made using a stereo cutting head and do not benefit at all from being played back with a mono cartridge. That in many cases just playing them back with a stereo cartridge is good enough. However, if they are a little bit noisy doing that you need only to engage a mono button (if you have one) or by summing the channels with a double Y connection scheme. >>>>>again; not that simple. Many (60-70%) modern mono pressings sound better with my mono cartridge. Likely this might come down to how the source tape was recorded. After the stereo era started (mid-50’s) mostly records were recorded in stereo, then folded down into the mono mix. That would compromise the goodness of the mono. you don't know what you don't know.<<<<<
2a) Is there some way to know if a mono record that was made in the transition period of 1967-68 used a mono cutting head or a stereo cutting head?
>>>>not that I know of<<<<
3) Depending on the mono cartridge, you might even do damage to a "modern cut" mono record (cut with a stereo cutting head) by playing it back with a mono cartridge.
>>>>not that I’ve experienced. I play all my most recent mono pressings on my mono cartridge without any issue.<<<<
4) I have a Miyajima Zero mono cartridge. If #3 is true, is that cartridge one of the ones that could cause damage? >>>>>likely yes, my Miyajima premium Be has the same structure.<<<<
5) If the Miyajima Zero IS a candidate for damaging a modern cut mono, are there other mono cartridges that DON'T pose this danger?
>>>>most mono cartridges are not with the larger stylus like the Miyajima mono carts. But I can’t give you a list of all mono carts with each stylus type.<<<<<
6) If #2 is true and the best way to listen to a modern cut mono is with a stereo cartridge with the channels summed using a double Y connection scheme, should the double Y connection go into the phono stage, line stage or it doesn't matter?>>>>>again; most of my recent mono pressings sound better on the mono cartridge. And I use a stereo phono cable with a ‘Y’ connector into one side of my phono stage. Then my mono switch on my preamp gives me a mono output to both channels. I can’t say how all various wiring choices compare. This works well for me.<<<<<
7) My phono stage has 3 inputs. If the answer to #6 is either a) going into the phono stage or b) it doesn't matter, then can I connect the double Y's to the 3rd input and run a ground wire from the stereo ground lug on input 1 to the ground lug for Input 3? That way if I play a mono record made before 1967-68 I can use the mono cart. If I play a mono record made after 1967-68 I can swap the phono cables (coming from the tonearm) from Input 1 to the double Y connection on Input 3.
>>>>try every way you can and follow your ears.<<<<

 

[timztunz]

I would like to pose some notions that I have formed from different sources (or perhaps they are misconceptions?) and then ask some questions of this esteemed group.
1) Mono records made prior to 1967-68 were made using a mono cutting head and benefit greatly from being played back with a mono cartridge.
>>>true, but it’s not that simple. Sometimes even early mono pressings are better on a stereo cartridge. My experience with my 350-400 early mono pressings is that about 80% sound better with my Miyajima Labs Premium Be, but for whatever reason not all conformed to that result<<<<.
2) Mono records made AFTER 1967-68 were made using a stereo cutting head and do not benefit at all from being played back with a mono cartridge. That in many cases just playing them back with a stereo cartridge is good enough. However, if they are a little bit noisy doing that you need only to engage a mono button (if you have one) or by summing the channels with a double Y connection scheme. >>>>>again; not that simple. Many (60-70%) modern mono pressings sound better with my mono cartridge. Likely this might come down to how the source tape was recorded. After the stereo era started (mid-50’s) mostly records were recorded in stereo, then folded down into the mono mix. That would compromise the goodness of the mono.<<<<<
2a) Is there some way to know if a mono record that was made in the transition period of 1967-68 used a mono cutting head or a stereo cutting head?
>>>>not that I know of<<<<
3) Depending on the mono cartridge, you might even do damage to a "modern cut" mono record (cut with a stereo cutting head) by playing it back with a mono cartridge.
>>>>not that I’ve experienced. I play all my most recent mono pressings on my mono cartridge without any issue.<<<<
4) I have a Miyajima Zero mono cartridge. If #3 is true, is that cartridge one of the ones that could cause damage? >>>>>likely yes, my Miyajima premium Be has the same structure.<<<<
5) If the Miyajima Zero IS a candidate for damaging a modern cut mono, are there other mono cartridges that DON'T pose this danger?
>>>>most mono cartridges are not with the larger stylus like the Miyajima mono carts. But I can’t give you a list of all mono carts with each stylus type.<<<<<
6) If #2 is true and the best way to listen to a modern cut mono is with a stereo cartridge with the channels summed using a double Y connection scheme, should the double Y connection go into the phono stage, line stage or it doesn't matter?>>>>>again; most of my recent mono pressings sound better on the mono cartridge. And I use a stereo phono cable with a ‘Y’ connector into one side of my phono stage. Then my mono switch on my preamp gives me a mono output to both channels. I can’t say how all various wiring choices compare. This works well for me.<<<<<
7) My phono stage has 3 inputs. If the answer to #6 is either a) going into the phono stage or b) it doesn't matter, then can I connect the double Y's to the 3rd input and run a ground wire from the stereo ground lug on input 1 to the ground lug for Input 3? That way if I play a mono record made before 1967-68 I can use the mono cart. If I play a mono record made after 1967-68 I can swap the phono cables (coming from the tonearm) from Input 1 to the double Y connection on Input 3.
>>>>try every way you can and follow your ears.<<<<

Most appreciated Mike.

 

[timztunz]

Hi Tim,

The General probably will have one of the largest mono collections in the world and he believes in using the best stereo cart you can get and use it to play mono (as mono carts can be limited). His Thomas Mayer phono does not have a mono switch

However, one session I was at Bill's we did try playing mono with the stereo cart (madake) on Bill's and it sounded fuzzy until we switched on the mono switch - this was with the NVO Spa II SE.

Another friend here has a a SPU and a Madake for his stereo, and the Miyajima zero 1.0 and 0.7 for his monos (the 0.7 is for new and old monos, while the 1.0 is optimized for older/true monos (done with mono cutting heads), as per Miyajima. We found the stereo carts to be better through his EAR 912 phono, until he got both the stereo and the mono SUTs. We found the mono SUT to have a higher impact and now mono sounded better with the Miya Zero 1.0. Would improving the stereo cart have tilted the balance again for the stereo cart to sound better on mono? I do not know.

Number95 on this forum told me he prefers his Miya Zero for monos to his stereo carts, which are Zyx Uni P and Ikeda Kai. IIrc he uses one of top AR models for phono.

I think the reason for these varied opinions are probably based on the combo of the stereo carts and phono people are using...possibly some do not do mono well, tilting the favor in balance of the true mono set up. Either way, since you already have the Miya Zero carts, best is to play your monos on stereo carts and the Miya zero and see for yourself.

Do not use the Miyajima mono carts on stereo records, that is all. Apparently mono carts like Lyra can also be used on stereo records without damaging them. Whether they sound as good as the Miya Zero on the mono records I do not know.

One advice the General will give you is to first set up the system (speaker positioning) to play mono, then overlay it with stereo. That might help in using stereo carts for mono playback

My experience is obviously not up to that of most users here, but I can't think of one instance where I preferred the sound of a mono record (old or new) using my A95 cartridge over my 0.7 Zero. My fear was this idea that I could be causing some kind of damage on the newer records using the Zero. But it seems that fear might not be valid.

 

[Tango]

Hi Tim,

The General probably will have one of the largest mono collections in the world and he believes in using the best stereo cart you can get and use it to play mono (as mono carts can be limited). His Thomas Mayer phono does not have a mono switch

However, one session I was at Bill's we did try playing mono with the stereo cart (madake) on Bill's and it sounded fuzzy until we switched on the mono switch - this was with the NVO Spa II SE.

Another friend here has a a SPU and a Madake for his stereo, and the Miyajima zero 1.0 and 0.7 for his monos (the 0.7 is for new and old monos, while the 1.0 is optimized for older/true monos (done with mono cutting heads), as per Miyajima. We found the stereo carts to be better through his EAR 912 phono, until he got both the stereo and the mono SUTs. We found the mono SUT to have a higher impact and now mono sounded better with the Miya Zero 1.0. Would improving the stereo cart have tilted the balance again for the stereo cart to sound better on mono? I do not know.

Number95 on this forum told me he prefers his Miya Zero for monos to his stereo carts, which are Zyx Uni P and Ikeda Kai. IIrc he uses one of top AR models for phono.

I think the reason for these varied opinions are probably based on the combo of the stereo carts and phono people are using...possibly some do not do mono well, tilting the favor in balance of the true mono set up. Either way, since you already have the Miya Zero carts, best is to play your monos on stereo carts and the Miya zero and see for yourself.

Do not use the Miyajima mono carts on stereo records, that is all. Apparently mono carts like Lyra can also be used on stereo records without damaging them. Whether they sound as good as the Miya Zero on the mono records I do not know.

One advice the General will give you is to first set up the system (speaker positioning) to play mono, then overlay it with stereo. That might help in using stereo carts for mono playback

I have been waiting for someone to say what you said above. I also dont think my mono cart sounds generally better than stereo carts playing mono's. I have compared the Etna Mono to other stereo carts of mine. Now I dont use the Etna Mono at all. Probably not just because mono doesn't t give me the obvious advantage but also the type of sound of Etna itself. My mono vinyls are mostly vocal jazz in the 50's to 65. I havent played every single one of them with both mono and stereo carts but generally my Master Sig, Opus1 and AtlasSL beat out the Etna Mono. Apart from the click s and pops, the old mono pressings also sound more realistic and natural than the newly pressed and remastered ones imo.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[VinylSavor]

Hi!

His Thomas Mayer phono does not have a mono switch

Many mono records have not been cut according to the RIAA standard. In order to play back mono records a phono preamp with adjustable EQ curve is the best solution. I have such a mono phono stage in my offering for historic recordings. This can also properly reproduce 78rpm records.

78rpms can be amazing if played back with the proper EQ, but they do require a cartridge with 65um needle

BR

Thomas

 

[bonzo75]

Hi!



Many mono records have not been cut with the RIAA standard. In order to play back mono records a phono preamp with adjustable EQ curve is the best solution. I have such a mono phono stage in my offering for historic recordings. This can also properly reproduce 78rpm records.

78rpms can be amazing of played back with the proper EQ, but they do require a cartridge with 65um needle

BR

Thomas

Yes agreed

 

[VinylSavor]

A few examples of 78rpm Shellack records which we played at the Munich High End this year:

A Caruso record from 1906 (!!!):

Enjoy!

Thomas

 

[Tango]

Thank you Thomas. I enjoy your video very much.

@bonzo75 . Why the heck didn't you tell me about this room.

Tang

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Also loving those videos, guys. So we are listening to 78rpm through the Mayer Mono / 78 compatible phono via Azzolina Mojo? The latter are the field coils? Is this 10Y and monoblock 46?

 

[timztunz]

Those videos are simply amazing! Although the first one was blocked for me. I had no idea, especially the one from 1906! Many kind thanks!

 

[VinylSavor]

Hi!

i am glad you like that stuff

Also loving those videos, guys. So we are listening to 78rpm through the Mayer Mono / 78 compatible phono via Azzolina Mojo? The latter are the field coils? Is this 10Y and monoblock 46?

Yes the Field coil Mojos, my 10Y linestage and we had different amps which we swapped: 46 drive 46 monos, 4 chassis big 845 monos and the small 211 monos


There are more clips on my youtube channel also with some stereo 'modern' music and a whole lot of other stuff. It's not organised in playlists since I only use the youtube channel to host videos which are embedded in my blog.

Here some clips with 78rpm from 4 years ago at the ETF in Berlin:

And if you want to go retro all the way:

Enjoy!

Thomas

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi!

i am glad you like that stuff



Yes the Field coil Mojos, my 10Y linestage and we had different amps which we swapped: 46 drive 46 monos, 4 chassis big 845 monos and the small 211 monos


There are more clips on my youtube channel also with some stereo 'modern' music and a whole lot of other stuff. It's not organised in playlists since I only use the youtube channel to host videos which are embedded in my blog.

Here some clips with 78rpm from 4 years ago at the ETF in Berlin:

And if you want to go retro all the way:

Enjoy!

Thomas

Awesome stuff. I am loving the trombone riffs on that last Peggy Lee/Benny Goodman 78.

 

[Tango]

Awesome stuff. I am loving the trombone riffs on that last Peggy Lee/Benny Goodman 78.

Really Bill. Is that a vintage version of "Singing in the rain?"

Tang