MSB Power Amps - current generation

[Googaliser]

Hi Everyone,

Whilst I was initially disturbed to see that Mike Lavigne had moved away from the Select II DAC as his personal favourite, I realised that it had in fact created an opportunity for me to own one (price agreed with seller). I have been following MSB for over a decade and procrastinated until now - but the cost of entry today better fits my music enjoyment budget!

A big thank you to all of you, especially Mike - for allowing me to passively follow your adventures with this DAC. I hope to be in a position to contribute my own story soon, and am convinced that it really is still a class leading product from a company with an enviable track-record.

My question today regards the amps. DartZeel Mono's have always been the dream but are out of reach (at least until Mike crowns a new king in the amp world ). My MSB dealer has the S500 available. The few reviews I have found have been really positive. So the question - for those of you who purchased the new MSB amps - do you still own them and would you recommend them? I would love to hear what your experience has been since an unboxing or initial review - monos or stereos - large or small.

Thank you in advance, Marc

 

[bryans]

Curious if you have done a demo in your setup with MSB amps?

 

[Googaliser]

Hi Bryans - no I haven't - this will be for an entirely new system - so blank sheet of paper.

 

[Jeffy]

Marc add the MSB Director to your DAC and you will truly have the best digital sound you have ever heard. This is a Must purchase and obviously my opinion.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Hi all, me too, I’m curious to know what MSB amos owners are thinking about them.

I have a Premier+Powerbase+Femto93 and I was wondering what’s the best upgrade for me.

- Premier Digital Director (19.000 euro here in Italy)
- Reference DAC (72.000 euro) I’d like because of the Preamp module that could let me use my analog rig without swapping the XLR cables from DAC to Pre each time (very rarely) I want to listen to vinyl
- S202 stereo amp (40.000 euro), as per my dealer it would fit best my needs, he said my weakest link actually is amplification

Due to the amount of money, this investment (and the part of my system I eventually trade in to make the deal feasible), I have to accurately ponder this upgrade. As it probably is definitive, it means that until years I wouldn’t be able to have enough funds for further improvement.

Next month I’ll do a home audition, of course.

If I go for the S202 my doubts are:
- input impedance might be a limit for non MSB pre in future?
- re sell value of the amp on the used market if in future I want to go for other amp brands
- is it the right choice comparing to a Reference DAC upgrade as possible alternative?

thank you in advance.

 

[koalakoala]

Hi all, me too, I’m curious to know what MSB amos owners are thinking about them.

I have a Premier+Powerbase+Femto93 and I was wondering what’s the best upgrade for me.

- Premier Digital Director (19.000 euro here in Italy)
- Reference DAC (72.000 euro) I’d like because of the Preamp module that could let me use my analog rig without swapping the XLR cables from DAC to Pre each time (very rarely) I want to listen to vinyl
- S202 stereo amp (40.000 euro), as per my dealer it would fit best my needs, he said my weakest link actually is amplification

Due to the amount of money, this investment (and the part of my system I eventually trade in to make the deal feasible), I have to accurately ponder this upgrade. As it probably is definitive, it means that until years I wouldn’t be able to have enough funds for further improvement.

Next month I’ll do a home audition, of course.

If I go for the S202 my doubts are:
- input impedance might be a limit for non MSB pre in future?
- re sell value of the amp on the used market if in future I want to go for other amp brands
- is it the right choice comparing to a Reference DAC upgrade as possible alternative?

thank you in advance.

Hi Luca,
Just my 2 cents...
If I were you, I would consider the following priority
1. amp. This is the heart of the system. (secondary considerations like preamp compatibility and resell are far into the future)
2. ref dac. A difficult choice because of the price difference. Nonetheleds, my feeling is that it would be a significant upgrade over the premier.
3. digital director. No doubt a great addition but this should wait after you fix the primary parts.
Of course, don't trust my words...you will do your own audition...

 

[koalakoala]

Hi Everyone,

Whilst I was initially disturbed to see that Mike Lavigne had moved away from the Select II DAC as his personal favourite, I realised that it had in fact created an opportunity for me to own one (price agreed with seller). I have been following MSB for over a decade and procrastinated until now - but the cost of entry today better fits my music enjoyment budget!

A big thank you to all of you, especially Mike - for allowing me to passively follow your adventures with this DAC. I hope to be in a position to contribute my own story soon, and am convinced that it really is still a class leading product from a company with an enviable track-record.

My question today regards the amps. DartZeel Mono's have always been the dream but are out of reach (at least until Mike crowns a new king in the amp world ). My MSB dealer has the S500 available. The few reviews I have found have been really positive. So the question - for those of you who purchased the new MSB amps - do you still own them and would you recommend them? I would love to hear what your experience has been since an unboxing or initial review - monos or stereos - large or small.

Thank you in advance, Marc

Hi marc

I bought the s500 when it was first released 3 years back. I am still happily using it now, for its natural sound, clarity and resolution. It is working really well in synergy with the rest of the system, obviously -select dac, select transport. I already added the digital director recently and that has enchanced every merit of the original system positively.

At the time of purchase, I did consider other alternatives, notably CH M10 and Vac 452. For me, the decision was straightforward - those other options were still under development and not yet in production. Now perhaps people may seriously consider those alternatives or newer amps like gryphon apex, pilium zeus or even certain soulution amp not yet disclosed... Considering that msb amp may offer better compatibility with msb dac, there are still more variations to consider - a pair of small msb mono? a pair of small msb stereo biamps? (yes, I like the biamp alternative). Something for you to think about...

The above just my 2 cents. Don't trust my words...do your own audition and use your own judgement. Cheers.

 

[bryans]

Hi all, me too, I’m curious to know what MSB amos owners are thinking about them.

I have a Premier+Powerbase+Femto93 and I was wondering what’s the best upgrade for me.

- Premier Digital Director (19.000 euro here in Italy)
- Reference DAC (72.000 euro) I’d like because of the Preamp module that could let me use my analog rig without swapping the XLR cables from DAC to Pre each time (very rarely) I want to listen to vinyl
- S202 stereo amp (40.000 euro), as per my dealer it would fit best my needs, he said my weakest link actually is amplification

Due to the amount of money, this investment (and the part of my system I eventually trade in to make the deal feasible), I have to accurately ponder this upgrade. As it probably is definitive, it means that until years I wouldn’t be able to have enough funds for further improvement.

Next month I’ll do a home audition, of course.

If I go for the S202 my doubts are:
- input impedance might be a limit for non MSB pre in future?
- re sell value of the amp on the used market if in future I want to go for other amp brands
- is it the right choice comparing to a Reference DAC upgrade as possible alternative?

thank you in advance.

I see that you are using a PS Audio BHK Preamp. I assume you are going to pair that with the MSB S202. To add a curveball you might consider listening to the PSA S200, M300, or M600. Given you have PSA gear in your setup I'm thinking it is to your liking.

Now I would "think" the biggest difference, not saying better, would be the S202 compared to your M1200. You will be listening to completely different amplification classes from different companies.

Also you could look at going S202 AND Premier DD. This is still cheaper than going with the Reference DAC.

Whatever you end up with, I'm sure it will be outstanding!

 

[ationg]

I have the M500 amps for more than 2 years. Very natural sounding, refined, and dead quiet. The inky black background was very startling first time I heard music through them.

 

[Googaliser]

Really appreciate everyone's contribution - the thread was quiet for a while so I was growing concerned. Low noise floor is key for me and has informed the design of the room (within a room).

 

[Googaliser]

Hi all, me too, I’m curious to know what MSB amos owners are thinking about them.

I have a Premier+Powerbase+Femto93 and I was wondering what’s the best upgrade for me.

- Premier Digital Director (19.000 euro here in Italy)
- Reference DAC (72.000 euro) I’d like because of the Preamp module that could let me use my analog rig without swapping the XLR cables from DAC to Pre each time (very rarely) I want to listen to vinyl
- S202 stereo amp (40.000 euro), as per my dealer it would fit best my needs, he said my weakest link actually is amplification

Due to the amount of money, this investment (and the part of my system I eventually trade in to make the deal feasible), I have to accurately ponder this upgrade. As it probably is definitive, it means that until years I wouldn’t be able to have enough funds for further improvement.

Next month I’ll do a home audition, of course.

If I go for the S202 my doubts are:
- input impedance might be a limit for non MSB pre in future?
- re sell value of the amp on the used market if in future I want to go for other amp brands
- is it the right choice comparing to a Reference DAC upgrade as possible alternative?

thank you in advance.

Hi Luca - have you considered a used Select II? I suspect it would be significantly cheaper than the new Reference price you quote, and I have heard great things about MSB's after-sales care. The Select warranty is 10 years.... This is the route I am going down

 

[Googaliser]

I have the M500 amps for more than 2 years. Very natural sounding, refined, and dead quiet. The inky black background was very startling first time I heard music through them.

Thank you.... Any temptation to change the source or amps? There's some new DAC out there beginning with a W that seems to be luring MSB owners away! I have probably read all the threads on the topic and still have very mixed emotions

 

[Googaliser]

Marc add the MSB Director to your DAC and you will truly have the best digital sound you have ever heard. This is a Must purchase and obviously my opinion.

Thank you, Jeff. Opinions on this seem positive - have even looked at DC cables with reported benefits. I think I will just be happy to get the MSB in the house and then will look at upgrades once it has settled-in. With each new box also comes a HRS VRX shelf tax....

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I see that you are using a PS Audio BHK Preamp. I assume you are going to pair that with the MSB S202. To add a curveball you might consider listening to the PSA S200, M300, or M600. Given you have PSA gear in your setup I'm thinking it is to your liking.

Now I would "think" the biggest difference, not saying better, would be the S202 compared to your M1200. You will be listening to completely different amplification classes from different companies.

Also you could look at going S202 AND Premier DD. This is still cheaper than going with the Reference DAC.

Whatever you end up with, I'm sure it will be outstanding!

Thank you Bryans,

since I heard the MSB sound I felt in love with this brand. PS Audio makes great audio gear and I love it but I’m looking at the MSB route on the horizon.
Just right now I’m using the Premier DAC directly connected to my amps, it means without the BHK Pre and I’m so curious to try the MSB combo DAC+Amp for that reason.
Even if I had to purchase the Reference, in my plans, I’d go with its internal pre module, trading in the BHK Pre. It could also help me realizing a consistent amount of value (added to the Premier/Powerbase/Femto93) to make more affordable the Reference purchase.

It seems funny but the most expensive upgrade in my case could be the Premier DD, without used stuff to trade in. To be honest I’m still waiting for a definitive offer from my dealer, so it is premature any conclusions.

That is the reason why I’m asking to MSB owners an opinion about possible MSB S202 or Reference upgrades, mainly under a sonically aspect.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Hi Luca - have you considered a used Select II? I suspect it would be significantly cheaper than the new Reference price you quote, and I have heard great things about MSB's after-sales care. The Select warranty is 10 years.... This is the route I am going down

Hi Googaliser,

how I wish you are right but here in Italy the new Select II costs 155.000 euro and also on the used market (where it’s almost impossible to find one) I doubt it could be found at a price cheaper than the Reference. As we use to say, to dream costs nothing…

Good luck for your journey, hope you can soon share your thoughts about MSB amp and DAC.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I finally had the opportunity to have a week home audition of the MSB S202.

As I promised before, here below my thoughts I already posted on PS Audio Forum.

I’m not a reviewer or an expert audiophile, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I’m just a music lover with no competence, two ears and a (Italian passionate) heart.

You can find my system on my forum profile, here I need to premise just that:
- the amplifiers I’m familiar with, are the PS Audio M1200s monos. Any comparisons would be pretty unfair so my intent is just to express what I liked about the S202
- I plugged all week long the S202 to a Puritan 156 conditioner by a AQ Dragon HC power cord
- I used the PS Audio BHK Pre between the DAC and the amp before. Then I went directly from my MSB Premier DAC to the S202. The sheet below shows my valuations using both of these 2 set ups.

> Here a few numbers able to describe my thoughts better than words

SOURCE	STREAM	STREAM	CD	CD	VINYL
PATH	PRE	DAC	PRE	DAC	PRE
White noise/Hum	9	10	9	10	8
Background	9	10	9	10	8
Naturalness	8	9	8	9	9
Image precision	8	8	8	8	8
Soundstage depth	8	9	8	9	9
Soundstage width	8	8	8	8	9
Separation	9	9	9	9	9
Voice	8	9	8	9	8
Hights	7	8	8	8	8
Bass	9	9	9	8	8
Presence	9	9	9	9	9
Transient	8	8	8	8	8
Clarity	8	9	8	8	8
Airy	8	8	8	8	8
Detail	9	9	9	9	9
Unveil	8	9	8	9	8
Realism	8	9	8	9	9
Calm	9	9	9	9	9
Control	9	9	9	9	9
Engagement	9	10	9	10	9
	8,4	8,9	8,5	8,8	8,5

Listening to albums I know very well, from different genres like rock and jazz, I took instantly a few notes, I’m glad to share with you here below. Take these as simply spontaneous thoughts put black on white on a paper just to remind what I felt.
All these qualities were evident since I hooked up the S202 in my system, but especially I’m referring to impressions during my last two days, when I connected the S202 directly to the Premier DAC, it means without a pre in the chain.

> What did impress me more?

**BODY** in mid bass area there is a fullness expanding the music in the room, a smoother richness of texture from wall to wall in front of me.

**DECAY** each note lasts way way longer before disappearing

**BLACKER BACKGROUND** the music seems to come from a silence, like a deep immensity

**SPEAKER DISAPPEARED** on the front wall the sound is painting a strong image, it seems that the speakers are completely off

**MUSICAL** you are more into the music, like the performers were here at know, in a larger room where you are in too. All seems to be exactly in its right place, tonally correct and natural, you're tempted to turn the volume up a notch, and again and again. And every increment is enjoyable, enriching the sound image with nuances without the slightest noise or distortion or excess. especially the mid-low frequencies take on body, consistency, structure. the sound is full, round with a perfect detachment from the mid-highs which instead are pleasantly detailed, precise, with small details that emerge continuously by shifting the attention from one instrument to another. The inflection of the voice is so articulate that even the most intricate and complex passages are rendered easily and realistically.

**AUTHORITY** it reminds me of the power of a car engine, when silent it goes uphill without the slightest difficulty and you clearly feel that if you accelerate, an important starting point and recovery is immediately available but it is not necessary to deliver power because traveling at idle you feel safe and relaxed.

**SILENT CHASSIS AND DEAD SILENT TWEETERS** due to tubes in M1200s I was always used to listen to a subtle white noise from speakers, with the S202 the room (acoustically treated and therefore very sensitive) is completely silent. It means that also on delicate passages the subtle nuances like whispering, singer breath or rumors on the stage are clearly audible and it brings a realism very very immersive.

**LIQUID** the music flows like suspended in the room, ethereal vivid palpable as if it floated on placid waters with such enjoyable delicacy.

> Did I decide to buy it or not at the end of the week?

Some guys in Watsonville CA are assembling a unit for me right now, black of course.

 

[CKKeung]

The Radar Audio Company in Hong Kong has recently become a retailer of MSB.
Pairing MSB digital frontends and amps with the Magico that they carry give excellent result.

Here is a pair of M205 driving a pair of Magico M3 :


The stereo version S202 should be more suitable than his mono M205 brother for smaller listening rooms.

 

[koalakoala]

The Radar Audio Company in Hong Kong has recently become a retailer of MSB.
Pairing MSB digital frontends and amps with the Magico that they carry give excellent result.

Here is a pair of M205 driving a pair of Magico M3 :
View attachment 113178

The stereo version S202 should be more suitable than his mono M205 brother for smaller listening rooms.

hi CK
how would u rate the msb against the gryphon?

 

[Kingsrule]

Anyone compare the M205's with the M500's ?

 

[ofer58]

i wish for a new msb amp between the 202 and 500.
in a word: more power but not so large footprint