MSB Select II arrival

[microstrip]

No this is not correct. This happens only if the preferred is Lampi . And yes, there is something like consistency in comparison across systems. Also, CD cannot beat vinyl (properly set up, lower cost), so why bother? No disrespect, your arguments are straw man. With digital the comparison is too easy and especially when repeated across systems is a no brainer.

No, it is not straw man, it is the reality most of the time, although we have exceptions. We can always hope that this thread on Mike MSB Sellect II will be the exception, but I have little hope. Thanks for using the word beat - it helps my point.

 

[LL21]

I have to give it to you...great taste in electronics! I note the mighty Mephisto as well! Enjoy! And yes, would love to read your comparison between the 2 digital systems. I have spent a few sessions with the DCS Vivaldi but never heard the MSB stuff.

Yes I have compared my dCS Vivaldi 2.0 Stack to the MSB Select II. Apologies I am a new member but can offer some thoughts of how the two performed in my system if interested

View attachment 34864

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Micro and Bonzo,

I see the truth in both of your approaches, even though on the surface they are at odds.

perceptions in many systems do tell you something that rings true. it can cut through synergies and separate gear. but only with seriously focused attention and a consistent reference of music. lots of casual anecdotal brief snippets of feedback, is different than feedback from people and systems that are known to you or where enough is known about the circumstances to attach credibility. and applying knowledge of the biases and system contexts to feedback is also part of it.

OTOH as you can read from the majority of my posts on this thread where I mention other dacs I've had in my own system recently; my own system's balance and character does cater to particular dacs better than others. and I recognize that some dacs I've moved on from might be perfect in other systems. is it possible for a particular dac to be best (preferred?) in all systems? who could know that?

as far as the value of feedback from Simon/iSquirrel or Jones99 about the MSB Select II <-> dCS Vivaldi stack besides a brief data point here; one would need to search out their postings on other forums or writings and get a feel for where they are coming from. we can observe the seriousness of their investment and system building. unfortunately there are not many who have had both these products so we have to make the best of what we can find......if.....we are interested in getting an idea of an answer to the question. can that ever be a perfect answer. no. but is there some value. I think so.

to be clear; I'm not the one asking this question.

 

[Steve Williams]

No, some of us are not ... You know my opinion on direct comparisons, we are mostly reading about synergies in a system we do not have experience with. Besides, when people describe single components, they refer to the music they have listened, they finely describe the way they were listening and what they feel, how they tuned the system. In direct comparisons they mostly say that their preferred "kills" the opponent and prefer to imagine flaws in it than describing the positives of their choice. It is so evident that one "kills" the other, why loosing time?

I also can not understand the anxiety of knowing if a DAC sounds better than LPs in other people systems ...

Surely, as always on these matters, YMMV.

Of course micro

But this would be merely an anecdotal opinion of one person. I think they are both top shelf contenders and I have no pony in the game. I know what you own and what Mike owns and I know what I prefer but I see no harm in getting people's opinions. Nothing more

 

[awsmone]

I knew Simon in his Wilson distributing days in Oz, and he was a lovely man to know, I am sorry to hear he had some troubled times but glad he is back on his feet

 

[koalakoala]

Hi everybody!
This is koalakoala hailing from Hong Kong.
Been following this thread with great interest...
Just my 2 cents:
1. By all means go for 2x mono powerbases - you won't regret it.
2. Don't stack up your dac on the powerbase.
3. You can do without a preamp - for improved transparency, and saving up $ for other more effective upgrades...
Cheers

 

[Jones99]

Gentlemen first of all apologies for the delay in reply ..work got the best of my time today..... a big hello to all.
I suppose I should first of all give a quick outline of my system

Gryphon Pendragon Loudspeaker System
Gryphon Mephisto Stereo Amplifier
Gryphon Pandora Preamp
Aurender W20
dCS Vivaldi 2.0 full stack
Goebel Lacorde Cables



As can be seen by my equipment I needed to consolidate my equipment after a return from working overseas and was quite keen to purchase a new rack which could house the dCS stack and the rest of my equipment . By chance the seller of the Rack asked what I was hoping to fit in the rack ....on finding out I had a dCS Vivaldi stack he asked me if I would be interested in auditioning the Select II dac. To compare Vivaldi, Select II and Gryphon Kalliope (which I also own) in my own system was too good too refuse .....needless to say I gladly accepted.

I have owned the dCS stack for over a year and it is one of my favorite pieces of equipment. In my system it has been a revelation. I really liked the lovely lush and full sound of the Kalliope but for me the Vivaldi just offers more into the music a sense of there and a sound that leads me to forget I am listening to electronics.

I was told to leave the Select II on for a few days and finally hooked it up to an Aurender W20 via usb to the quad usb input which was then connected to Pandora/Mephisto.
dCS Vivaldi was connected by dual AES/EBU for ease of intial comparison . (For all comparison the respective clocks were connected to the W20).
Right out of the box the Select II sounded quite different to what I was used to with Vivaldi the Select II it is a very difficult sound to describe the back ground is just inky black and air hangs around notes ,but I also sensed I had lost some of the bass ,sound stage and dynamics I am used to with the Pendragons. This was very evident on the Manger CD "Jazz Variants" where I would usually sink it to the immersive complex sound and powerful kick drums.... The Vivaldi 2.0 deliver this in spades .. huge sound stage that spreads well past the speakers ,dynamics , bass that surprises and you feel ... I liked the Select II sound but for me the Vivaldi offered a lot more complete sound.
I guess I should have not been surprised by preferring the Dual AES/EBU vs USB .....I had to take this out of the equation so I then used the Vivaldi Transport as a source for both DACs. As before the clocks of each system was used for clocking the Vivaldi Transport. I used the 2xDSD setting for the Vivaldi and normal 44.1 for the Select II.
On feeding the Select II with the Vivaldi transport (single AES/EBU) the change was immediate and confronting ....the sound stage, dynamics bass was back to what I was used to but now I had that ultra black background detail ,dilinearising like I have never heard before with no fatigue a seductive and grain free sound which was just addictive.....
Back to Vivaldi the sound stage,dynamics and bass are there but I am missing the inky black backgrounds ,space , detail ,seductive sound ....the Vivaldi in comparison dare I say sounds a little muddier,confused, dark........the previous statement needs to be taken in context though....the Vivaldi is superb and is one of the best playback systems available but for me I preferred the Select II coupled with the dCS most of the time.. Either playback system I would happily live with.

I rang the dealer and discussed how much I enjoyed the Select II and he mentioned that he thought I had not heard the best of the Select II and suggested I try direct driving to Mephisto . I have never liked direct drive from DACs previously and was reluctant but being impressed by its sounds so far really wanted to hear how far this DAC could go . I explained in current configuration I needed a second output module to be able to drive the active Pendragons........ 2 days later a module arrived from MSB and I installed it....super impressive service from MSB and the dealer!!!

On listening to the direct drive to Mephisto I was in complete awe , shocked and blown away by the sound ....everything I had heard before previously was now even grander, larger than life ,sound stage expanding past what I was used ,lightening fast transients dynamics and attacks amplified but never fatiguing . Bass with more impact and quickness that is just frightening ......pure and just sounding right. The sound just draws you and immerses you......so so addictive....
I will never knock Vivaldi I really love the sound of it and enjoyed every minute I have owned it ......but you can never undo what has been heard .....I have ordered a Select II with mono bases and look forward to receiving it . I am told the mono power bases make a huge difference but I am not sure where it can be improved ....audition this DAC at your own peril while it is obscenely expensive it is an outstanding accomplishment.

Can others who have the Select II mono bases explain where to expect improvements?

Regards
Jones99

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi everybody!
This is koalakoala hailing from Hong Kong.
Been following this thread with great interest...
Just my 2 cents:
1. By all means go for 2x mono powerbases - you won't regret it.
2. Don't stack up your dac on the powerbase.
3. You can do without a preamp - for improved transparency, and saving up $ for other more effective upgrades...
Cheers

hello koalakoala,

thank you for joining the festivities......and welcome to What's Best Forum. I wondered how the Select II was doing in the rarified air of the 'uber' level HK high end audio scene.

I appreciate the feedback about the MSB Select II. I would make a humble request for you to expand your feedback to more details about your experiences with this product.....pictures, system contexts, and any other details you might add to the items you've listed.

as far as stacking the powerbases and the dac; I'm in the middle of thinking that one through right now. so more details of your specific experience would be particularly helpful. what rack system or footer choice did you make?

regarding the use without a preamp; any specific preamp you tried and went back to the MSB passive unit?

again welcome!!

 

[Priaptor]

Gentlemen first of all apologies for the delay in reply ..work got the best of my time today..... a big hello to all.
I suppose I should first of all give a quick outline of my system

Gryphon Pendragon Loudspeaker System
Gryphon Mephisto Stereo Amplifier
Gryphon Pandora Preamp
Aurender W20
dCS Vivaldi 2.0 full stack
Goebel Lacorde Cables

View attachment 34881

As can be seen by my equipment I needed to consolidate my equipment after a return from working overseas and was quite keen to purchase a new rack which could house the dCS stack and the rest of my equipment . By chance the seller of the Rack asked what I was hoping to fit in the rack ....on finding out I had a dCS Vivaldi stack he asked me if I would be interested in auditioning the Select II dac. To compare Vivaldi, Select II and Gryphon Kalliope (which I also own) in my own system was too good too refuse .....needless to say I gladly accepted.

I have owned the dCS stack for over a year and it is one of my favorite pieces of equipment. In my system it has been a revelation. I really liked the lovely lush and full sound of the Kalliope but for me the Vivaldi just offers more into the music a sense of there and a sound that leads me to forget I am listening to electronics.

I was told to leave the Select II on for a few days and finally hooked it up to an Aurender W20 via usb to the quad usb input which was then connected to Pandora/Mephisto.
dCS Vivaldi was connected by dual AES/EBU for ease of intial comparison . (For all comparison the respective clocks were connected to the W20).
Right out of the box the Select II sounded quite different to what I was used to with Vivaldi the Select II it is a very difficult sound to describe the back ground is just inky black and air hangs around notes ,but I also sensed I had lost some of the bass ,sound stage and dynamics I am used to with the Pendragons. This was very evident on the Manger CD "Jazz Variants" where I would usually sink it to the immersive complex sound and powerful kick drums.... The Vivaldi 2.0 deliver this in spades .. huge sound stage that spreads well past the speakers ,dynamics , bass that surprises and you feel ... I liked the Select II sound but for me the Vivaldi offered a lot more complete sound.
I guess I should have not been surprised by preferring the Dual AES/EBU vs USB .....I had to take this out of the equation so I then used the Vivaldi Transport as a source for both DACs. As before the clocks of each system was used for clocking the Vivaldi Transport. I used the 2xDSD setting for the Vivaldi and normal 44.1 for the Select II.
On feeding the Select II with the Vivaldi transport (single AES/EBU) the change was immediate and confronting ....the sound stage, dynamics bass was back to what I was used to but now I had that ultra black background detail ,dilinearising like I have never heard before with no fatigue a seductive and grain free sound which was just addictive.....
Back to Vivaldi the sound stage,dynamics and bass are there but I am missing the inky black backgrounds ,space , detail ,seductive sound ....the Vivaldi in comparison dare I say sounds a little muddier,confused, dark........the previous statement needs to be taken in context though....the Vivaldi is superb and is one of the best playback systems available but for me I preferred the Select II coupled with the dCS most of the time.. Either playback system I would happily live with.

I rang the dealer and discussed how much I enjoyed the Select II and he mentioned that he thought I had not heard the best of the Select II and suggested I try direct driving to Mephisto . I have never liked direct drive from DACs previously and was reluctant but being impressed by its sounds so far really wanted to hear how far this DAC could go . I explained in current configuration I needed a second output module to be able to drive the active Pendragons........ 2 days later a module arrived from MSB and I installed it....super impressive service from MSB and the dealer!!!

On listening to the direct drive to Mephisto I was in complete awe , shocked and blown away by the sound ....everything I had heard before previously was now even grander, larger than life ,sound stage expanding past what I was used ,lightening fast transients dynamics and attacks amplified but never fatiguing . Bass with more impact and quickness that is just frightening ......pure and just sounding right. The sound just draws you and immerses you......so so addictive....
I will never knock Vivaldi I really love the sound of it and enjoyed every minute I have owned it ......but you can never undo what has been heard .....I have ordered a Select II with mono bases and look forward to receiving it . I am told the mono power bases make a huge difference but I am not sure where it can be improved ....audition this DAC at your own peril while it is obscenely expensive it is an outstanding accomplishment.

Can others who have the Select II mono bases explain where to expect improvements?

Regards
Jones99

Great writeup and awesome system and so glad you bypassed your preamp. For me, using the REF10 as my preamp, it was not a close call. Direct into my amp was truly revelatory.

Howie.

 

[earlinarizona]

Things are sure getting interesting. Great comparison, maybe moving the MSB power units away from the DAC and Priaptor's comment of the much improved sound when going direct compared to a top level preamp as the Ref 10. This is what a healthy forum looks like. Good conversation and information sharing. Has anyone compared the renderer to using for a normal server yet?

 

[Al M.]

I guess I should have not been surprised by preferring the Dual AES/EBU vs USB .....I had to take this out of the equation so I then used the Vivaldi Transport as a source for both DACs. As before the clocks of each system was used for clocking the Vivaldi Transport. I used the 2xDSD setting for the Vivaldi and normal 44.1 for the Select II.
On feeding the Select II with the Vivaldi transport (single AES/EBU) the change was immediate and confronting ....the sound stage, dynamics bass was back to what I was used to but now I had that ultra black background detail ,dilinearising like I have never heard before with no fatigue a seductive and grain free sound which was just addictive.....

Great write-up about the DAC comparison. As for the bolded parts (emphasis mine), I have always been suspicious about USB for technical reasons and have pointed out several times (including once on this thread I believe) that AES/EBU is likely much better because
a) it delivers a constant data stream rather than data packets that have to be re-clocked
b) it does not have the tremendous noise problems of USB.

I have a much more modest digital set-up, but I have always gone AES/EBU and never considered anything else (in my old Wadia days I had optical but that was a Wadia-optimized proprietary link). I drive from transport rather than computer. If I'd ever want to have a server (I don't) I'd go with one of the Baetis servers that all feature, guess what, an AES/EBU output.

 

[Legolas]

No, it is not straw man, it is the reality most of the time, although we have exceptions. We can always hope that this thread on Mike MSB Sellect II will be the exception, but I have little hope. Thanks for using the word beat - it helps my point.

Yes a good point. But I think we need a 'target' or comparison. We could use 'real music' as a datum point, that would be more accurate, but then there are tons of variables in that as well. Do we use an orchestra playing in a music venue? That would have variables as well, some venues have terrible acoustics. I guess does the home system in front of you really convince you it is real, or is it entertaining but you know it is a digital representation?

If we go to the cinema and watch a really great film, we can be 'fooled' into forgetting we are sat in rows of seats, well if the movie is very good and the quality of the image and sound is excellent. So to me, if a music system brings pure audio enjoyment with minimal distractions going on with it, then it must be good right? No diving for the volume, or track swapping.

Being an audiophile can be a curse. Like the gardener who only sees the weeds not the flowers in bloom, we can obsess over the tiniest of traits in the sound, thinking it isn't quite right. And of course, it isn't quite right is it, it is an illusion. But if it is convincing 'enough' and we succumb to it, well the superb audio system right there! Or we will NEVER be happy or enjoy the system no matter what, how much we spend and how long we are on this road......

 

[Legolas]

Jones99
Interesting review and congrats on your amazing system.

A few ideas. Can you run the dCS as 44.1 and not as 2xDSD? I am wondering if the up sampling and processing is muddying the sound as you noticed?

Can you feed your power amp direct from the dCS? The reason is I have fed my power amp direct from my DAC and in my system is is better than via a pre-ampliier. This effect if very DAC dependant IMO and the output impedance of the DAC and design of the line stage in it.

Guess you now selling the dCS?

 

[Priaptor]

Things are sure getting interesting. Great comparison, maybe moving the MSB power units away from the DAC and Priaptor's comment of the much improved sound when going direct compared to a top level preamp as the Ref 10. This is what a healthy forum looks like. Good conversation and information sharing. Has anyone compared the renderer to using for a normal server yet?

I think most of us are waiting for the "new" renderer to be released before we try or buy it. From what I can gather, it seems like the different sources are transport, USB and haven't heard much about the "old renderer". My experience to date with USB has been the following players; Roon, JRiver and Roon-->HQPlayer. My USB sources have included a custom built server with the new JCAT Femto USB card powered by (the now defunct but awesome) dual rail linear supply Kaia from Core Technologies, Sonore microRendu powered by the Uptone's LPS-1 and finally Sonore ultraRendu powered by Uptone's LPS-1.

My experience was that before ROON V1.3, JRiver was the better player and I kind of forgot about it until I got the Select as I was only using ROON to go to HQPlayer to upsample to DSD512 for my T&A headphone rig.

When I got my Select II I went through my preliminary evaluation, very methodically, kind of the way I interpret X-rays, looking at every variable regardless of my "gestalt" opinion at first glance or hearing in this case. My first goal was to decide direct v. REF10. I wanted to be totally sure "different" wasn't being interpreted as "better". I know my system very very well as I haven't made many changes to it over the years, with the exception of changing out the REF75 to GS150 and the various upgrades to the IV Plus MSB to the V. In every case, even before totally broken in, direct, in my system was superior and added a unique dimension I have never (and quite frankly never thought possible on my system) heard from digital. I should also add, I am "now" a digital only person but in my past days was a vinyl only person.

I left the REF10 in the rack and a simple unplugging and plugging in my XLR was as simple thing. No matter what player/USB combo I used direct was definitely the answer. I was told to listen to the "optimized DSD" compared to the native DSD setting and that wasn't a close call either, with Optimized sounding vastly superior. I didn't need to listen to 5 hours worth of files as was recommended to determine Optimized was better and even asked the MSB folks, why even bother offering Native as an option as the difference so vast.

Now I had to move on to player and feeding source. My server with customized JCAT and linear power supply was always my reference. Roon direct before 1.3 I found flat and uninvolving. JRiver was my go to. Then I tried JRiver using DLNA into the microrendu, which was "good" likely a toss up between the two but so buggy I decided it wasn't worth it. When I got the Select I decided to start all over and try Roon direct using the microRendu as an endpoint. Well there are three options for "volume" and the default, for me was mediocre at best, starting to second guess even Jussi from HQPlayer who recommended I not even bother using his amazing player if I wasn't using it to filter but every time I went back to Roon--HQPlayer-->microRendu it sounded vastly superior to my server. Something just didn't make sense. Went back to the microRendu chose the hardware volume setting and all changed. I am leaving out many steps in between including cables, etc.

So my standard for getting the most out of my Select II became ROON Core on a computer on my network, with a NAS all isolated from my music network using the microrendu as my endpoint to my Select. For me this became the standard and was much superior to all the other variations. Of course it was just at this time that Jesus released the ultraRendu which I had placed an order for which I got a few weeks ago and out went the microRendu and in went the ultraRendu which is now my standard.

The REF10 got sold and all I can say is I am in awe. My Select II is fully broken in and I have what my personal research proved to be the best sounding of all variables at my disposal.

So I am now in digital heaven. I am likely also ordering the second power supply as the more you throw at this DAC as hard as it is to believe, every little change does make a difference. Since I got my ultraRendu, Jesus has now released the "Signature Rendu SE" which is basically a one chassis ultraRendu with his own linear power supply that goes for 3K although he will refund the money for the ultraRendu if I buy it. However, I really don't want to put too much more effort or $$ into my USB until I hear the Renderer.

So that is my experience to date, after having the Select for a couple of months, albeit with many weeks in between not listening as I was in my summer home. My current baseline is awesome and I am a truly loving it. It has exceeded my expectations on all fronts and I look forward to future improvements.

Howie

 

[Legolas]

Howie

So you up sampling on your PC or feeding g it native. I thought MSB say feed it as is. I know Rob Watts at Chord says as much. I wonder if you can go ethernet and drop USB output altogether? Might be even better.

 

[Priaptor]

Howie

So you up sampling on your PC or feeding g it native. I thought MSB say feed it as is. I know Rob Watts at Chord says as much. I wonder if you can go ethernet and drop USB output altogether? Might be even better.

No feeding it direct. Sorry for the confusion. I use Roon-->HQPlayer upsampled ONLY for my headphone system which has the T&A DSD dac. I was using and trying out ROON-->HQplayer without any filters or upsampling to the IV Plus, V and now the Select. Never upsampled to any of my MSB DACS.

Direct Ethernet is my next and "final frontier" with this DAC when they come out with the new renderer and why I am not putting any more money into USB until I can get a grip on the new renderer and compare.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes a good point. But I think we need a 'target' or comparison. We could use 'real music' as a datum point, that would be more accurate, but then there are tons of variables in that as well. Do we use an orchestra playing in a music venue? That would have variables as well, some venues have terrible acoustics. I guess does the home system in front of you really convince you it is real, or is it entertaining but you know it is a digital representation?

If we go to the cinema and watch a really great film, we can be 'fooled' into forgetting we are sat in rows of seats, well if the movie is very good and the quality of the image and sound is excellent. So to me, if a music system brings pure audio enjoyment with minimal distractions going on with it, then it must be good right? No diving for the volume, or track swapping.

Being an audiophile can be a curse. Like the gardener who only sees the weeds not the flowers in bloom, we can obsess over the tiniest of traits in the sound, thinking it isn't quite right. And of course, it isn't quite right is it, it is an illusion. But if it is convincing 'enough' and we succumb to it, well the superb audio system right there! Or we will NEVER be happy or enjoy the system no matter what, how much we spend and how long we are on this road......

for me it's very simple and has been consistent for me over a long period of time.

I compare any digital to my analog vinyl and tape. the more ways it resembles that and the more degrees closer then I'm happy. so I am grounded in that reference. I'm thrilled with my analog, completely satisfied. so it works for me.

 

[microstrip]

Great write-up about the DAC comparison. As for the bolded parts (emphasis mine), I have always been suspicious about USB for technical reasons and have pointed out several times (including once on this thread I believe) that AES/EBU is likely much better because
a) it delivers a constant data stream rather than data packets that have to be re-clocked
b) it does not have the tremendous noise problems of USB.
(...)

Unless you have an external clock to synchronize the system the AES/EBU is a source of problems, as the DAC clock has to be built on the digital stream timing - it is the DAC clock that has be "re-clocked".

IMHO we have to look at the whole system before pronouncing absolute winners. But you are right - very small details can change the whole picture.

 

[microstrip]

Yes a good point. But I think we need a 'target' or comparison. We could use 'real music' as a datum point, that would be more accurate, but then there are tons of variables in that as well. Do we use an orchestra playing in a music venue? That would have variables as well, some venues have terrible acoustics. I guess does the home system in front of you really convince you it is real, or is it entertaining but you know it is a digital representation? (...)

For some of us the target is our perception of reality - something that is subjective. My evaluations are sometimes centered on the music I have listened life and own the recording. For the last three months the preamplifier / no preamplifier dilemma has been hunting me. In my case, no preamplifier gives me more of the recording - layering and detail - but when I use a top preamplifier I am much closer to what I listened life and to the performance. In any case I will need the preamplifier for my analog sources.

 

[Armsan]

Mine is already in the country.
Next week I'll be able to put my hands and ears on it.
By now, as you know, only with USB module because the Renderer is not ready yet. It' ll be exciting to taste the flavours in different phases. My guess, as my experience with the Diamond, is that the Renderer will be my favorite, in my sistem, of course.
Long days to come.
Best regards.
Armsan