Nagra Debuts its New Reference Anniversary Turntable/Tonearm Record Playback System

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
Apparently the market share of vinyl versus tape is 10 - 1 , so a record player would sell much better .
I dont understand the logic anyway , if you re into classical or Jazz why not buy a tape machine.

If you have 100 K to spend you can buy all the tapes available .
Add to that a telefunken or studer plus a external tapestage / tapehead amplifier if you feel like and you have better SQ then LP playback afaic , without having to do all these cartridge / arm adjustments
Because you simply don't have the content! There are very few albums on reel available to buy, and that's not likely to change.
Records do not wear whereas reels do degrade after about 50 plays -- so it's far less attractive for the masses. Reels are like vinyl lacquers - they were never meant to be a long term home audio medium. But you can play a lacquer on any record player and it will sound very good, arguably better than on a reel (although there are many variables to consider).
But yeah, if you can afford a $100k+ TT, then you can probably afford a nice reel to reel machine as well ;)
 

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
564
670
108
57
Because you simply don't have the content! There are very few albums on reel available to buy, and that's not likely to change.
Records do not wear whereas reels do degrade after about 50 plays -- so it's far less attractive for the masses. Reels are like vinyl lacquers - they were never meant to be a long term home audio medium. But you can play a lacquer on any record player and it will sound very good, arguably better than on a reel (although there are many variables to consider).
But yeah, if you can afford a $100k+ TT, then you can probably afford a nice reel to reel machine as well ;)
Sad to say, but I hardly play my TT anymore, and mostly listen to tape. The lack of distortion, noise and compression compared to LP makes it hard to get back to vinyl. And I have most of my favorite recordings on tape (about 250 titles).
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
Sad to say, but I hardly play my TT anymore, and mostly listen to tape. The lack of distortion, noise and compression compared to LP makes it hard to get back to vinyl. And I have most of my favorite recordings on tape (about 250 titles).
I have just got into lacquers - game changer! There is no apparent distortion, no noise, no compression... no "wow and flutter" ;)
 
Last edited:

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
i was in the dealer showroom when Reference Anniversary was installed. Although not able to listen to it careful since it was not fully setup, I had an idea about its make and sound.

This turntable is beautifully made, typical Swiss product. Every line and angle is accurate and precised. The edge is a little too sharp, one can accidentally cut his hand if one is not careful.

The platter top is clear acrylic. There is no platter mat, of course, one can add whatever he wants.

It comes with a 10.5 inch unipivot tonearm. There is no provision for antiskate and azimuth adjustment. The oil cup for unipivot joint is exposed, ie without any cover. With time, dust will gather into the cup and mixed with the damping oil. Oil cup has to be cleaned out regularly and change to new oil, just like a motor vehicle.

The spring loaded suspension has its limitation as mentioned above by other members. The isolation will be affected by the amount of damping oil. In a way, it can be tuned to the room and personal preference.

Finally the sound has a typical Nagra characteristic, ie detailed and smooth. It can be a little too plain to some.

My initial impression is not a bad turntable at all, but seems to be a little overpriced. There are many competitors in the market with similar price point. View attachment 87939
“There is no provision for antiskate and azimuth adjustment.”

Not true. Both adjustments are possible.
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
Apparently the market share of vinyl versus tape is 10 - 1 , so a record player would sell much better .
I dont understand the logic anyway , if you re into classical or Jazz why not buy a tape machine.

If you have 100 K to spend you can buy all the tapes available .
Add to that a telefunken or studer plus a external tapestage / tapehead amplifier if you feel like and you have better SQ then LP playback afaic , without having to do all these cartridge / arm adjustments
The tape market is tiny. It’s not 10-1, it’s probably 1000-1. And the tape market is not growing at anywhere near the same rate, either.
I don’t doubt a well recorded, well stored, tape will surpass the sound quality of anything else; but tape sound degrades after 50-100 plays from what I hear, so I don’t really “get it”? Not for the current cost of a tape. I get if you have a library of tapes that you inherited or paid little for… but when a new tape album is ~$500 and you get max 100 plays from it?
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
I'm not sure a $170K turntable will outsell tape machines 10:1. And people with $170K to spend on a turntable have many choices, each claiming superiority over the others. Moreover, most of these people probably already have a top end TT. However, there are few choices for people who want a top-end tape machine that is plug and play, and has spare parts, manufacturer warranty and after sales servicing. My Nagra TA broke down recently and I had nobody to turn to. My tech at Nagra had retired, but in the end, he was able to talk me through and diagnosed the problem.
And I daresay my Nagra T Audio, with my DIY tape head preamp, will outperform any turntable on the planet, except perhaps direct to disc LP recordings, which might stand a chance of competing. The reason is, however good the TT is, it cannot get around the fact that towards the end of an LP side, the amount of information retrieved diminishes due to slower groove velocity. It cannot get around the mechanical problems associated with the tonearm/cartridge/cantilever interface, unless you use an optical cartridge, or better, a laser turntable. And most of the LPs are produced with a process that involves 3 stages of electroplating, with losses during each phase. You only need to compare the lacquer with the test pressing to notice the difference, and the lacquer is cut from a tape, so it can only equal the tape but not surpass it. Therefore, with $170K, I would spend perhaps $50K for the machine and the rest on tapes. I have about 300 titles, mostly copies from production or safety masters, and some commercial ones made directly from edited work parts, covering pretty much most of the music I listen to regularly. For other music, I just use streaming services and LPs.

You conveniently omit all the drawbacks of tape .
Wow, flutter, noise, and degradation are some.

There’s no “one best” medium. Tape, vinyl, digital, they all have pros and cons.
E.g., when you have heard a Taiko Extreme with the latest hardware and software, you’ll understand that digital is superior to even tape, in some respects.
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
Nagra (whose audio business accounts for less than 1% of their revenue).
Where do you get this? It’s not true. First of all, Nagra Audio’s company name is Audio Technology Switzerland which is privately held. Nagra Kudelski group is a public company and has nothing to do with Nagra Audio.
Audio Technology Switzerland is owned by Pascal Maroux and Marguerite Kudelski and was divested from Nagra Kudelski group in 2012. Marguerite is also a Board member (and likely shareholder) of Nagra Kudelski.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jfrech

BillK

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2015
280
193
273
Sad to say, but I hardly play my TT anymore, and mostly listen to tape. The lack of distortion, noise and compression compared to LP makes it hard to get back to vinyl. And I have most of my favorite recordings on tape (about 250 titles).

I've looked before and precisely one album I want to listen to is available on audiophile RtR (15 IPS.)

Other titles are "available" but not legally (the copies of master tapes typically played at audio shows.)
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
I hope Nagra shares more detail about the myriad of innovations in the Reference Turntable. For example, the two motors do not serve an identical role. The drive system is actually more like a direct drive than belt — what they have done here, including with the speed control, is fascinating.

Cartridge takes over 200 hours to fully break-in, so keep this in mind if you are auditioning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jfrech

TLi

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2016
432
1,080
253
Pricing strategies is a complex science which you can easily Google it on YouTube.

Supply and demand together with the value of the product determine the final price.
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
Pricing strategies is a complex science which you can easily Google it on YouTube.

Supply and demand together with the value of the product determine the final price.
I should add that I have a Harvard MBA and have launched several tech companies… so I fully understand pricing strategy is complex.
I think I am qualified enough to say I don’t agree with Thorens pricing strategy. Perhaps this is not worth much, but I’m squarely in the target market and cannot justify this price.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLi

TLi

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2016
432
1,080
253
I agree with you. I do think the price is too high, our only difference is I respect your decision and would not criticise his pricing. It is a free market after all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mtemur and Zeotrope

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,354
2,731
1,400
Amsterdam holland
From munchen.
Nice looking gear.
 

Attachments

  • 20230521_123821.jpg
    20230521_123821.jpg
    645.7 KB · Views: 9
  • 20230521_123817.jpg
    20230521_123817.jpg
    696.9 KB · Views: 9
  • 20230521_123455.jpg
    20230521_123455.jpg
    1,000.4 KB · Views: 9
  • 20230521_124836.jpg
    20230521_124836.jpg
    775.8 KB · Views: 7
  • 20230521_124829.jpg
    20230521_124829.jpg
    600.4 KB · Views: 8
  • 20230521_124821.jpg
    20230521_124821.jpg
    777.1 KB · Views: 8
  • 20230521_123837.jpg
    20230521_123837.jpg
    675.4 KB · Views: 8
  • 20230521_124842.jpg
    20230521_124842.jpg
    639.9 KB · Views: 10
  • Like
Reactions: Zeotrope and TLi

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,762
1,398
230
49
France, Canada
I agree with you. I do think the price is too high, our only difference is I respect your decision and would not criticise his pricing. It is a free market after all.
I agree. You are more ‘polished’ and diplomatic than I ;). I just want more people to be able to own it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLi

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing