Nagra Debuts its New Reference Anniversary Turntable/Tonearm Record Playback System

[andromedaaudio]

I was a bit puzzled when Nagra announced this limited edition TT. Kind of the same reaction when I heard Thorens was going to release a new tape deck. I wrote to Gunter Kürten asking him why he was introducing a tape deck when he should be releasing an updated TD124; he told me to wait for more news.... This time, I wrote to my contact at Nagra, asking him why the company spent all this time and effort to make something that many other companies with more experience and expertise (in TT design) were already doing, when they could easily design and build a state of the art tape machine. He told me to wait for more news........

Apparently the market share of vinyl versus tape is 10 - 1 , so a record player would sell much better .
I dont understand the logic anyway , if you re into classical or Jazz why not buy a tape machine.

If you have 100 K to spend you can buy all the tapes available .
Add to that a telefunken or studer plus a external tapestage / tapehead amplifier if you feel like and you have better SQ then LP playback afaic , without having to do all these cartridge / arm adjustments

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial and sales and fat profits are guaranteed. zero risk for service nightmares. easy peasy. predictable.

an uber tape deck now is betting the company, huge investments in engineering and tooling, small market and profits. there is not market case to be made for a $175k tape deck. how many would you need to sell to break even?

this is the real world where you can go bust.

serious players buy a Studer A-820 (or a few other preferred decks) and pay someone to maintain it. get the heads and output electronics that float your boat. the odds of someone getting to that level and pulling it off with a ground up tape deck design are pretty low. and if you can't then why go there?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont agree .
In europe you can buy a well maintained / restored studer A 80 for 7 K , you can have it with a direct heads out for more or less the same price .
With a Eternal arts tape stage of around 2250 euro you have a 10 K package which you can put up against any LP playback afaic .
Spend 20 - 25 K and you have a package with a Doshi
Its only the tape ( recording ) quality which is the limiting factor as to how far one can take it as a source

Ps I really wish Nagra would design a statement tapedeck as it would bring a lot of attention to the brand

 

[spiritofmusic]

Andromeda, you're gonna find very few people defending 175 Big on this tt. I've heard an amazing modded Thorens 124, exemplary Vyger and Brinkmann Balance, the Vyger in the mother of all amazing Thomas Mayer/Pnoe horns based system. I have ZERO expectation that this Nagra can significantly beat these TTs at a fraction of the cost in any meaningful way, certainly based on this video.
Ditto the SAT DD and OMA K3.
The AS2000, AF0? Now there's something to discuss. But not this Nagra.
Shame, I love the looks, and the brand. But this TT looks pure lifestyle aspirational, not cutting edge.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The AS2000, AF0? Now there's something to discuss. But not this Nagra.
Shame, I love the looks, and the brand. But this TT looks pure lifestyle aspirational, not cutting edge.

I dont think its fair to conclude this from some pics and a product description
I think the oil dampened springs or whatever the mechanism is looks fancy .
The proof will be in the listening and use of the TT .
They are not stupid in CH .

 

[spiritofmusic]

Andromeda, I guess what we consider reasonable depends on how much money we have left at the end of the month after paying our bills Lol.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Andromeda, I guess what we consider reasonable depends on how much money we have left at the end of the month after paying our bills Lol.

Sure , but if it delivers , thats what its is all about in the end .
I could spend substantially more on HIFI if i wanted to ,....... but it needs to deliver substantially more as well .

 

[PeterA]

the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial and sales and fat profits are guaranteed. zero risk for service nightmares. easy peasy. predictable.

an uber tape deck now is betting the company, huge investments in engineering and tooling, small market and profits. there is not market case to be made for a $175k tape deck. how many would you need to sell to break even?

this is the real world where you can go bust.

serious players buy a Studer A-820 (or a few other preferred decks) and pay someone to maintain it. get the heads and output electronics that float your boat. the odds of someone getting to that level and pulling it off with a ground up tape deck design are pretty low. and if you can't then why go there?

Hello Mike, Why do you think the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial? You have four turntables and have owned many, many others over the years. I am sure they all sounded different, and for specific reasons. I have nowhere near your experience, but I have heard three extraordinary turntables that were so far ahead of the rest that I have heard (admittedly in different contexts) that it leaves me wondering. What is it about those three examples? Two are vintage and one contemporary but no longer really available (AS2000). They are all massive efforts, and now extremely rare and expensive.

This tells me that turntable design, at the highest levels, is a very difficult thing to do. The engineering may be easier than the design, but some tables promising to be the best new thing, come and go rather quickly, while the very best are revered for decades and become legendary. Is this not the point you are making with the Studer A-820?

 

[microstrip]

Andromeda, you're gonna find very few people defending 175 Big on this tt. I've heard an amazing modded Thorens 124, exemplary Vyger and Brinkmann Balance, the Vyger in the mother of all amazing Thomas Mayer/Pnoe horns based system. I have ZERO expectation that this Nagra can significantly beat these TTs at a fraction of the cost in any meaningful way, certainly based on this video.
Ditto the SAT DD and OMA K3.

No one can defend in a rational way an expensive turntable. But it is our choice to please our sound reproduction preferences. I know and explained before why I have this hobby and why I come to this forum to discuss it. I will never pretend individual hobbies are a rational way of spending our time.

The AS2000, AF0? Now there's something to discuss. But not this Nagra.

Why not the AF1+? At less we can have full information on it. There are a few of us here who own it, including one of the forum owners ...

Shame, I love the looks, and the brand. But this TT looks pure lifestyle aspirational, not cutting edge.

I am curious. How do you define cutting edge considering turntables? Something with a steam engine with centrifugal flyball governor?

 

[adrianywu]

So maybe this is a statement table and something more affordable with 90% of the performance at a lower price point? Is that how you read his reply? I know they have their HD Phono stage nearing completion, I wonder what else they are working on?

I suspect a new tape machine is more likely. All they need to do is reintroduce the Nagra T Audio in a simplified form without the time code and other functions that film production houses need. That will be good news for me since there will hopefully be spare parts available for my T Audio.

 

[microstrip]

Hello Mike, Why do you think the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial? You have four turntables and have owned many, many others over the years. I am sure they all sounded different, and for specific reasons. I have nowhere near your experience, but I have heard three extraordinary turntables that were so far ahead of the rest that I have heard (admittedly in different contexts) that it leaves me wondering. What is it about those three examples? Two are vintage and one contemporary but no longer really available (AS2000). They are all massive efforts, and now extremely rare and expensive.

This tells me that turntable design, at the highest levels, is a very difficult thing to do. The engineering may be easier than the design, but some tables promising to be the best new thing, come and go rather quickly, while the very best are revered for decades and become legendary. Is this not the point you are making with the Studer A-820?

Peter,

I have disassembled more than once a Studer A80. I can assure you the complexity of a top tape machine is much higher than that of a turntable.

BTW, rarity mostly means that there is no current offer, nothing else. This is an hobby of small numbers.

 

[dan31]

No doubt on the scale of complexity. Turntable is easy compared to a pro tape deck.

 

[Lagonda]

I dont think its fair to conclude this from some pics and a product description
I think the oil dampened springs or whatever the mechanism is looks fancy .
The proof will be in the listening and use of the TT .
They are not stupid in CH .

But greedy !

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

I have disassembled more than once a Studer A80. I can assure you the complexity of a top tape machine is much higher than that of a turntable.

BTW, rarity mostly means that there is no current offer, nothing else. This is an hobby of small numbers.

Fransisco, Not all rare turn tables sound great. Nor does complexity make a turntable great. My point is quality of sound. That next level. I know two stories of friends who heard these great turntables and immediately knew. Information retrieval with natural presentation.

It seems extremely difficult to design and produce a turntable that sets or meets the highest sonic standard. I suppose it depends on what the sonic goals of the listener are.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But greedy !

How many are they gonna sell ?? 20 - 30 - 40 ??
It costs a lot of money to design something like this from the ground up .
i doubt they will make any money / profit on it .
What it might do and is probably the reason why they make it ,is to make their other products sell better.
A statement product

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Mike, Why do you think the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial? You have four turntables and have owned many, many others over the years. I am sure they all sounded different, and for specific reasons. I have nowhere near your experience, but I have heard three extraordinary turntables that were so far ahead of the rest that I have heard (admittedly in different contexts) that it leaves me wondering. What is it about those three examples? Two are vintage and one contemporary but no longer really available (AS2000). They are all massive efforts, and now extremely rare and expensive.

This tells me that turntable design, at the highest levels, is a very difficult thing to do. The engineering may be easier than the design, but some tables promising to be the best new thing, come and go rather quickly, while the very best are revered for decades and become legendary. Is this not the point you are making with the Studer A-820?

probably the most exotic thing ever on a turntable was an off the shelf 'eddy-current' motor for the Rockport Sirius III, followed by it's controller.

it...spins.....a....platter. pretty much that's it. not saying that execution of the details can't be non-trivial. but the task is pretty basic.

i've loved me lots of turntables, but just pop the top panels off a Studer A-820 and take a look. examine the tape path engineering. many degrees of complication higher to execute properly.

 

[Lagonda]

probably the most exotic thing ever on a turntable was an off the shelf 'eddy-current' motor for the Rockport Sirius III, followed by it's controller.

it...spins.....a....platter. pretty much that's it. not saying that execution of the details can't be non-trivial. but the task is pretty basic.

i've loved me lots of turntables, but just pop the top panels off a Studer A-820 and take a look. examine the tape path engineering. many degrees of complication higher to execute properly.

I am blown away by the intricacies of the analog and mechanical solutions in tapedecs before microprocessor ! The imagination they used to come up with some of the things we take fore granted in the computer age is amazing !

 

[andromedaaudio]

There are a lot of tech. companies capable of designing a state of the art tape path if they put their mind to it .
Problem is there is no money in it.

 

[DasguteOhr]

the crazyiest thing ever seen on a turntable was denon dp 100m motor,
you can also install it in a car and drive with itwhat a monster.
Best direct drive ever? I think so

 

[andromedaaudio]

That looks like the one i saw in the Aries cerat / Alsyvoxx room at the dutch show .
I didnt hear it play , they played a dutch design table