Nagra Debuts its New Reference Anniversary Turntable/Tonearm Record Playback System

[morricab]

I dont think its fair to conclude this from some pics and a product description
I think the oil dampened springs or whatever the mechanism is looks fancy .
The proof will be in the listening and use of the TT .
They are not stupid in CH .

Indeed...but also not cheap labor there...

 

[morricab]

That looks like the one i saw in the Aries cerat / Alsyvoxx room at the dutch show .
I didnt hear it play , they played a dutch design table

View attachment 88051

Looks like an old studio deck.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Indeed...but also not cheap labor there...

The Swiss are much smarter then EU people , lol
Capable technicians have their price , they should double the TT price then you really get audiophiles interested

 

[morricab]

the crazyiest thing ever seen on a turntable was denon dp 100m motor,
you can also install it in a car and drive with itwhat a monster.
Best direct drive ever? I think so View attachment 88049 View attachment 88050 View attachment 88048

motor size is definitely not the only thing to consider in a TT motor...yes a lot of torque might be desirable (not all agree on this) but at what price to noise, cogging etc.?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Looks like an old studio deck.

No.. only 50 pieces made, denons answer for micro seki, money didn't matter 115 lbs 0.002 %wow and flutter

 

[adrianywu]

Apparently the market share of vinyl versus tape is 10 - 1 , so a record player would sell much better .
I dont understand the logic anyway , if you re into classical or Jazz why not buy a tape machine.

If you have 100 K to spend you can buy all the tapes available .
Add to that a telefunken or studer plus a external tapestage / tapehead amplifier if you feel like and you have better SQ then LP playback afaic , without having to do all these cartridge / arm adjustments

I'm not sure a $170K turntable will outsell tape machines 10:1. And people with $170K to spend on a turntable have many choices, each claiming superiority over the others. Moreover, most of these people probably already have a top end TT. However, there are few choices for people who want a top-end tape machine that is plug and play, and has spare parts, manufacturer warranty and after sales servicing. My Nagra TA broke down recently and I had nobody to turn to. My tech at Nagra had retired, but in the end, he was able to talk me through and diagnosed the problem.
And I daresay my Nagra T Audio, with my DIY tape head preamp, will outperform any turntable on the planet, except perhaps direct to disc LP recordings, which might stand a chance of competing. The reason is, however good the TT is, it cannot get around the fact that towards the end of an LP side, the amount of information retrieved diminishes due to slower groove velocity. It cannot get around the mechanical problems associated with the tonearm/cartridge/cantilever interface, unless you use an optical cartridge, or better, a laser turntable. And most of the LPs are produced with a process that involves 3 stages of electroplating, with losses during each phase. You only need to compare the lacquer with the test pressing to notice the difference, and the lacquer is cut from a tape, so it can only equal the tape but not surpass it. Therefore, with $170K, I would spend perhaps $50K for the machine and the rest on tapes. I have about 300 titles, mostly copies from production or safety masters, and some commercial ones made directly from edited work parts, covering pretty much most of the music I listen to regularly. For other music, I just use streaming services and LPs.

 

[adrianywu]

the design and engineering for a turntable is trivial and sales and fat profits are guaranteed. zero risk for service nightmares. easy peasy. predictable.

an uber tape deck now is betting the company, huge investments in engineering and tooling, small market and profits. there is not market case to be made for a $175k tape deck. how many would you need to sell to break even?

this is the real world where you can go bust.

serious players buy a Studer A-820 (or a few other preferred decks) and pay someone to maintain it. get the heads and output electronics that float your boat. the odds of someone getting to that level and pulling it off with a ground up tape deck design are pretty low. and if you can't then why go there?

If start-ups like Ballfinger and Metaxas can afford to do it, I doubt it will be too risky for a big company like Nagra (whose audio business accounts for less than 1% of their revenue). And Nagra already has the design, the expertise and the suppliers, since they are still supporting the IV-S and the TA. They will not be reinventing the wheel like the other two. And old Nagras are already highly coveted and enjoy a cult status within audiophile circles. In any case, their turntable was supposed to only have a limited run, so the profit potential is limited, but it could generate trickle down products. But so can a tape machine. The problem with Studers is a lack of spare parts, and the A820 uses ICs extensively, which is hard to service without the parts.

 

[audioblazer]

I'm not sure a $170K turntable will outsell tape machines 10:1. And people with $170K to spend on a turntable have many choices, each claiming superiority over the others. Moreover, most of these people probably already have a top end TT. However, there are few choices for people who want a top-end tape machine that is plug and play, and has spare parts, manufacturer warranty and after sales servicing. My Nagra TA broke down recently and I had nobody to turn to. My tech at Nagra had retired, but in the end, he was able to talk me through and diagnosed the problem.
And I daresay my Nagra T Audio, with my DIY tape head preamp, will outperform any turntable on the planet, except perhaps direct to disc LP recordings, which might stand a chance of competing. The reason is, however good the TT is, it cannot get around the fact that towards the end of an LP side, the amount of information retrieved diminishes due to slower groove velocity. It cannot get around the mechanical problems associated with the tonearm/cartridge/cantilever interface, unless you use an optical cartridge, or better, a laser turntable. And most of the LPs are produced with a process that involves 3 stages of electroplating, with losses during each phase. You only need to compare the lacquer with the test pressing to notice the difference, and the lacquer is cut from a tape, so it can only equal the tape but not surpass it. Therefore, with $170K, I would spend perhaps $50K for the machine and the rest on tapes. I have about 300 titles, mostly copies from production or safety masters, and some commercial ones made directly from edited work parts, covering pretty much most of the music I listen to regularly. For other music, I just use streaming services and LPs.

Where I come from support of R2R is non existent. My A80R collecting dust probably due to minor issues. So my preference is vinyl playback with plenty of LP . R2R tapes are pricey . The new tapes are recorded by mainly unknown artists

 

[andromedaaudio]

Have a look at acoustic sounds and what they offer and the tape project and hemiolia.
They sell well known artists excellent recordings.
For a 10 K cartridge one can buy a lot of tapes.
Plus tape handling is soooo easy compared to the endless variables of LP playback.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not to take anything away from the new Nagra LP machine , but tape has some characteristics LP/ digital just doesn t have .
Digital will never be exactly the same as LP / tape play back and LP playback will never exactly be Tape .
Each have their own strengths/ weaknesses but different

 

[adrianywu]

Where I come from support of R2R is non existent. My A80R collecting dust probably due to minor issues. So my preference is vinyl playback with plenty of LP . R2R tapes are pricey . The new tapes are recorded by mainly unknown artists

At this stage, getting into R2R needs dedication. There are specialists that can service the A80, more so in Europe than in the US. If you are in the US, you can contact Adolph Thal. It is essentially though that you learn how to do some basic maintenance procedures. As for tapes, you can pretty much get any recording produced before the 1980s on tape if you know where to look. There are collectors, mainly ex-mastering engineers, who own large collections of master tapes. Many more labels are now willing to release some of their recordings on tape. A source for official EMI/HMV recordings will be coming soon, as is Sweden's Proprius. RCA is already doing this with Analogue Productions, and hopefully Decca and Mercury will be available in the near future. I have LPs (original and reissues) and tapes of about 80 titles, and almost none of the LPs are better (unless the tape source I have is substandard, which is rare), and mostly significantly inferior. Tapes are not cheap, that's for sure, but I did not spend $170K on my LP front end (refurbished and upgraded Garrard 301/3012), and I bought my Nagra for less than the cost of a high end phono cartridge.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And Nagra already has the design, the expertise

The design and expertise yes , ..... but the suppliers most likely dont have the exact production lines still running
Last year ( 2020 ) i could buy 2 of them well maintained for 28 K .
He brought them to a tech in paris every 2 years or so , they sounded nice on NOS Pioneer gear and Harbeth
But i bought stocks instead lol
1 had the original stand.

 

[andromedaaudio]

What about a Nagra turntable in a T audio stand , wouldnt that look great.

 

[adrianywu]

The design and expertise yes , ..... but the suppliers most likely dont have the exact production lines still running
Last year ( 2020 ) i could buy 2 of them well maintained for 28 K .
He brought them to a tech in paris every 2 years or so , they sounded nice on NOS Pioneer gear and Harbeth
But i bought stocks instead lol
1 had the original stand. View attachment 88079

Lovely. 28K for both or for one ? These are time code machines with 2mm track width on the repro head. You need to change to the 2.75mm repro head for full benefit if you don't plan on using time code. Nagra will also remove the time code head and replace with an additional scrape flutter roller. See the picture of my machine for reference.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Price was for both .
I have already 3 machines which sound excellent now (i had them completely restored in 2020 , at least to my ears they sound good )

 

[CKKeung]

Let's come back to talk about the Nagra turntable!


I visited Forthwise Ltd., the Hong Kong dealer of Nagra yesterday afternoon.

Here is the bigger listening room of their showroom :


And the Nagra Reference Anniversary Turnable was there.
It's beautiful!


The meter and troggle switches are iconic!


The external super-capacitor powersupply is as big as those of the HD Series preamps & dac :


The preamp in the room was Nagra HD Preamp HV :


However, Forthwise was still busy fine-tuning it. They were testing diff cartridges and phonoamps (the Nagra's and the Karan flagship).


I think I need to visit them again a few weeks later, maybe after the Chinese New Year holidays.

 

[adrianywu]

Let's come back to talk about the Nagra turntable!


I visited Forthwise Ltd., the Hong Kong dealer of Nagra yesterday afternoon.

Here is the bigger listening room of their showroom :
View attachment 88120

And the Nagra Reference Anniversary Turnable was there.
It's beautiful!
View attachment 88121

The meter and troggle switches are iconic!
View attachment 88122

The external super-capacitor powersupply is as big as those of the HD Series preamps & dac :
View attachment 88123

The preamp in the room was Nagra HD Preamp HV :
View attachment 88124

However, Forthwise was still busy fine-tuning it. They were testing diff cartridges and phonoamps (the Nagra's and the Karan flagship).
View attachment 88125

I think I need to visit them again a few weeks later, maybe after the Chinese New Year holidays.

I will try to pop in next week.

 

[CKKeung]

I was sent several photo of the Reference Anniversary Turntable by Forthwise Ltd, the official dealer of Nagra.
They are quite well taken, actually much better than mine which were taken with my mobile phone.
Enjoy!

 

[Zeotrope]

I have a guess, it will be easily sold out

Almost sold out.. only about 20 units left according to my dealer.

 

[Zeotrope]

I was a bit puzzled when Nagra announced this limited edition TT. Kind of the same reaction when I heard Thorens was going to release a new tape deck. I wrote to Gunter Kürten asking him why he was introducing a tape deck when he should be releasing an updated TD124; he told me to wait for more news.... This time, I wrote to my contact at Nagra, asking him why the company spent all this time and effort to make something that many other companies with more experience and expertise (in TT design) were already doing, when they could easily design and build a state of the art tape machine. He told me to wait for more news........

I initially thought the same; but now I see that it makes sense:
Nagra has leveraged their reel to reel experience when designing the belt drive for the TT. If you think about it, there are similar problems to solve (e.g., speed stability).
The market for vinyl is huge compared to reel to reel, and I don't think reel to reel is growing faster (not in absolute terms). So there's a much better business case for a new TT.

A cost no object TT from Nagra that sounds great and looks great is a future classic. I doubt they are making much money at 70 units, but they did mention a non-Anniversary model will be made once these 70 have sold out (which is almost the case now).

And yes, I would expect that for their 75th Anniversary there will be a special reel to reel machine...