Nagra Rip Off?

[Bruce B]

Man buys $700 battery, discovers it’s just $30 worth of batteries stuffed in a big case

 

[esldude]

I think that qualifies as a ripoff. One because of the cost vs what is inside. Two because the obvious thing to do is open and replace the actual battery pack itself rather than buying this whole assembly. Not uncommon unfortunately.

 

[tunes]

Bruce,
Nagra posted a response to this yesterday on their facebook page.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1132918450085683&id=699692806741585

IMO, it's a reasonable response. Their gear has never been cheap but as a user of their tape machines paired with a doshi pre, as well as various 2 channel high end gear, i can testify that they take great care to reject any miniscule imperfections and manufacture gear that lasts decades and decades. That also includes honouring warranties and accepting liability.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
Nagra posted a response to this yesterday on their facebook page..

I'm just the messenger...

I love Nagra gear though. It's some of the best in the business!!

 

[esldude]

Obviously, removing the plate and unplugging the battery pack isn't all that involved. Voltages are not dangerously high. Maybe it is some sort of extreme liability issue. Seems they could have had instructions, sold you the battery pack at double price for their trouble and let the user swap it out quite easily for far less money.

 

[Hew]

So because we like their products, it's ok for them to rip us off? I read nothing in the Nagra reply that justifies the ridiculous pricing. But, as the saying goes, value is whatever the market is willing to bear. Perfect illustration of the state of the high end.

 

[dan31]

If you don't like Nagra products don't purchase them.

If someone else likes Nagra products and purchases them it's their own choice.

People love to complain.

 

[jfrech]

Geez. So don't buy their battery pack. Skip the warranty and testing and do your your battery pack. Or go buy a Sony for $100 and don't use a Nagra...

I paid $250 for a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 tube set for my phono stage. Tube's aren't fancy...can by them for $10 each on line. But Nagra test's them to the nth degree, warranties them, and they didn't hold a gun to my head to buy them. PS, I've bought NOS tubes for $200 each that didn't equal what Nagra was selling. So...who took whom here...

 

[nirodha]

Geez. So don't buy their battery pack. Skip the warranty and testing and do your your battery pack. Or go buy a Sony for $100 and don't use a Nagra...

I paid $250 for a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 tube set for my phono stage. Tube's aren't fancy...can by them for $10 each on line. But Nagra test's them to the nth degree, warranties them, and they didn't hold a gun to my head to buy them. PS, I've bought NOS tubes for $200 each that didn't equal what Nagra was selling. So...who took whom here...

Couldn't agree more!

 

[FrantzM]

Geez. So don't buy their battery pack. Skip the warranty and testing and do your your battery pack. Or go buy a Sony for $100 and don't use a Nagra...

I paid $250 for a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 tube set for my phono stage. Tube's aren't fancy...can by them for $10 each on line. But Nagra test's them to the nth degree, warranties them, and they didn't hold a gun to my head to buy them. PS, I've bought NOS tubes for $200 each that didn't equal what Nagra was selling. So...who took whom here...

If I am with Nagra and reading this , I will promptly charge a lot more for my batteries since some customers will make up excuses for my misbehavior. Come On people! Where does it end? What is the threshold for outrage? No wonder prices keep on rising for little to no gain in quality.

This is ripping off, gouging of the customer. Nagra is at fault maybe not all the time but in this instance,Yes!

 

[Nevillekapadia]

Not to defend Nagra's charges, but has anyone ever taken into consideration the cost of the tooling equipment and the time spent on design and the components that makes it fit on to the tape recorder to make it look presentable?

Sure if one wanted to get away with a replacement then they could take it apart and place another battery in it. But how would you feel if something did go wrong.

It's the usual story on high end cars too, where they charge a hand and a foot for a few pieces of plastic parts.

 

[jfrech]

Knowing Nagra, they also did some r&d so this wouldn't happen. Man's pants explode and catch fire due to e-cig battery:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/25/health/e-cigarette-explodes-in-mans-pocket/?iid=ob_homepage_deskrecommended_pool&iref=obnetwork

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

This reminds me of the "service guy" coming to my home to replace the SLA battery in the alarm system. Not wishing to presume anything about how to service it myself I let them do it the first time, pretending to act ignorant whilst in fact watching very carefully. It was the same principal. A $30 battery - and nothing more - for $200. Of course that included the "installation" fee. Needless to say, now that I know there is no secret decoding ring and clandestine handshake needed to replace it, I do it myself for $30.

I think the person who made the original You Tube video hit the nail on the head when he used the word "naughty" to describe what Nagra are doing here. There are alternative ways to have designed the power delivery system on the recorder / battery packs so as to massively reduce the cost of replacement to the consumer. I do not think that being a premium brand is an excuse to charge such a sum for a battery replacement.

That said, if Nagra offer a service whereby you can have that pack serviced (in the exact same way the YouTube poster was going to repair it) - say for up to $100 all up, then I think that would be completely fair given you'd have all the warranty / liabilities intact.

All said and done, it is probably a little unfair to pick on Nagra when this sort of practice goes on in so many other industries. There was a tiny piece of trim that was scratched on the steering wheel of my brand new car. I did not notice it when taking delivery of it and the manufacturer refused to replace it under warranty (they blamed me for it which is incorrect - I am incredibly careful about these things). Replacement cost was $600 retail. Having worked on cars regularly over the years and realising this was a complete rip-off, I disassembled the entire wheel, removed the offending trim, re-finished it myself, re-installed. Wheel has been perfect for two years. Cost to me: A few hours labour, $14 official factory service manual access for the day (for all the wiring, airbag stuff, precautions, etc), $20 for the refinishing coatings. Or the manufacturer could simply have made the part available for what it is really worth - probably about $20.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Not to defend Nagra's charges, but has anyone ever taken into consideration the cost of the tooling equipment and the time spent on design and the components that makes it fit on to the tape recorder to make it look presentable?

Sure if one wanted to get away with a replacement then they could take it apart and place another battery in it. But how would you feel if something did go wrong.

It's the usual story on high end cars too, where they charge a hand and a foot for a few pieces of plastic parts.

Yes, I agree that if you take the whole battery pack as a designed, functioning component as presented, then the asking price is probably at the extreme end of reasonable, but still reasonable when you take into account the overall cost and quality of the brand's equipment and the fact it comes with a warranty, etc. Where I have a problem is that the whole thing (recorder and battery pack) could have been designed completely differently from the very beginning, negating the need to replace components and an expensive, bespoke housing that could easily be re-used. For example, the battery pack that the user needs to buy could just be little more than the pack he pulls out complete with the temperature sensor and connecting plug. The rest of the electronics could permanently reside inside the recorder as easily-replaceable cards were they to fail. Doing that obviates the need for the expensive housing and electronics and the whole thing becomes much cheaper for the consumer. It wastes less resources and even the freight charges for replacement batteries are reduced. There is no real technical need for the battery replacement in something like this to be any more complicated than replacing the battery in a Nintendo Gameboy Advance. Yes, a much bigger battery but the principal could be (and should have been) exactly the same.

 

[beaux]

I think the purpose of the video is telling us what we are buying from nagra, though warranty and customer support are important.

 

[thedudeabides]

With all due respect, a contrarian view. For the prices that Nagra charges, they should supply the new battery pack for free and include installation instructions. That's good, sound customer service and certainly doesn't impact Nagra's bottom line.

 

[NorthStar]

To me what the video shows is good awareness, and I agree with thedudeabides above.

Nagra's lithium battery power pack...hmmm...

 

[sefischer1]

The price represents not just the batteries but the product design, case, circuit boards, connectors etc. The ripoff is trying to sell a whole module rather than a new battery pack to plug in. He muses just such a thing.

 

[sefischer1]

I have a Nagra VPS which can be run off of a battery pack which is an option in the Nagra MPS which goes for several thousands. I found a 6000 mAh battery pack on Amazon which has a 12V output connection. I simply bought 2 of them and used a Y adapter to connect them in parallel for a total of 12000 mAh (that's means it can supply the necessary .6A at 12V for about 20 hours. Effectively, using it daily, I need to recharge the pack overnight every several days or about once per week on average. Total cost less than $150 including the LEMO 3 pin connector, and the velcro disks and pads for attaching them together.

After charging, the output is 12.5V and when discharged to about just 2 LEDs, the voltage is about 11.25 V. I could have housed these in a box along with their charger units, hooked up through a transfer switch for switching between the output connected load and the chargers so that I wouldn't have to manually disconnect and charge them once per week.



Is my solution as good as Nagra's? Functionally, almost; elegantly, certainly not. The MPS is good for about 8 hrs on battery, my solution for about 2.5 times that.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO we should research and know the Nagra point of view before having views on this issue. Thirty seconds with google found it:

"Audio Technology Switzerland is keen to receive constructive and well documented criticism concerning its NAGRA products. However, amateur videos potentially putting customer safety at risk is strictly contrary to the company policy.
The technology developed and used in our batteries is excellent for energy storage for any environmental situation where a portable self-contained application is required. It is however a very sensitive technology, that needs to be handled extremely carefully. If not, lithium batteries can heat up and in extreme cases catch fire or even explode.
It is for these reasons that Audio Technology Switzerland takes extreme care to use certified (incl. CE & RoHS...) battery packs, in order to be able to guarantee the safe use of its products. This allows also our customers to travel with full security as this certification is valid for airline safety.
It would appear that the creator of this video is ill informed of various different possibilities. The battery pack was specifically developed so that if the customer needs to repair his machine, he can simply replace the defective single battery cell, or if he wishes to upgrade his machine, he can replace the single battery cell by a multiple battery pack, and the capacity is increased without the need to purchase the full battery pack. However, such operations should be undertaken by properly trained personnel, and full testing of the unit is necessary in order to avoid any safety risks or eventual damage to the recorder.
Audio Technology Switzerland - NAGRA develops and manufactures extremely reliable and high quality professional products, individually hand-made in Switzerland. This means long lasting products for the customers. The prices cannot be based on a single element of a particular device but reflect the precision, quality and service we strive to achieve.
NAGRA is against programmed obsolescence of its products, providing electronic equipment used and maintained for decades.
Nagra Team "