Need advice on cables for full TAD setup

dcathro

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Sep 16, 2016
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But this all misses the my most important points. First in the R1 there is about 1 meter of OFC zip cord that connects the terminals on the back to the LPF for the woofers. So no matter what, you are listening to zip cord that is in the circuit before the crossover. I highly doubt this is impacting the sound in any way, but I also don't think much will be improved by using something other than zip cord for the woofers, as long as the length is short, the cable is high quality OFC, the plus and minus conductors are close to each other and the connections are tight and clean.

If I owned those speakers my OCD would force me to go inside and replace that crap wiring. Teflon sleeved solid core silver would be a big improvement, different diameters for the respective drivers.
 

dcathro

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Sep 16, 2016
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BTW I'm not using a DSP crossover, but mostly because I haven't found a great multichannel DAC that works well for my application. I'm using a Pass XVR1, which is the best and most flexible active crossover I could find, and one that Andrew Jones was very familiar with. There are very few great active crossovers.

So you got rid of the passive crossover? What did you wire up the drivers with? zipcord?

BTW, I agree with you that the acoustic treatment of the room and speaker placement have the biggest impact on sound quality. Having said that, cables are still very important contributors to sound quality.
 

PGA

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Dec 29, 2013
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So you got rid of the passive crossover? What did you wire up the drivers with? zipcord?

BTW, I agree with you that the acoustic treatment of the room and speaker placement have the biggest impact on sound quality. Having said that, cables are still very important contributors to sound quality.
Only the LPF for the woofers was bypassed. This filter is behind the top woofer and it's connected to the binding posts on the back of the speaker with the same type of zip cord that is connecting all the drivers and crossover components in the R1.

The procedure to modify the R1s was to remove the top woofer, cut the zip cord coming into the LPF, cut the pair of zip cords coming out of the LPF to each woofer, and splicing the cables to the binding posts and the woofers together, making sure the correct polarity is observed (a bit tricky because the zip cord does not have polarity indicators).

No wiring was added or removed, but the end result is that the binding posts on the back of the speaker for the woofers are now internally connected directly to the woofers with the stock LPF is out of the circuit, but the stock passive HPF for the coax is intact. Reversing the procedure very simple.

Andrew Jones was able to develop a set of slopes in the Pass XVR1 crossover such that we could keep the coax's passive HPF in the TADs intact, while also adding additional high pass filters for the coax using the HPF in the XVR1. As such the coax now rolls off at a steeper slope. The LPF of the Pass XVR1 drives the amplifiers that drive the woofers. And this was done in a way so the acoustic output of the coax sums correctly with that of the woofers. Not something I would ever attempt to do without Andrew Jones's help.

We were lucky that this worked out with the drivers summing correctly. This is a hybrid set up. The woofer is fully active. The coax still has the passive filter in the TAD AND also HPFs in the XVR1 so it "see less bass signal". This opens up the midrange a bit.

I've measured the speaker near field and the transition from the woofers to the coax is very smooth. And the woofers sound great wired directly to the amplifiers.

Could someone now using more modern drivers make a better speaker than my biamped R1? Probably. Could Andrew update and improve the coax he designed 20 years ago with what he's learned over 20 years? Certainly. But the goal here was to optimize the R1 with the stock, 20 year old coax design, while keeping Andrew's sound signature. And at least to my ears, we succeeded.

But since this is a thread about cables, and not about how to biamp a speaker... the cables in my R1s are stock 14 gauge OFC zip cord. The cables connecting my R1s to the four ABH2 amps (in mono) are 6 foot Canare Star Quad cable, terminated by Benchmark. And there is a box in my attic of fancy cables that made rather minor differences in my system.
 

Amir

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May 3, 2021
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The Reference TADs are incredibly transparent, low distortion, high output transducers, but you will not get their full potential without treating the room and applying some judicious EQ.
I think acoustics and speaker placement has the biggest effect on sound but I do not use DSP for room correction.
I am trying to find a good place for my speakers. bob has a basic paper for speaker placement but it may takes over 100 hours for finding a good place.

the best gain is not flat frequency response , it is dynamics.
 

Raker24

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Jul 27, 2020
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Just moved to Paris from Singapore. Much larger room, with wooden floors, carpet, high ceiling, and massive stone wall behind the TAD CR1 TX speakers. The sound quality has massively improved, the room change has had a paradigm shift effect, much larger than any (or combination of) equipment and/or cable changes. The bass is now spectacular (thank you stone wall). By the way, the TAD user guide for the speakers has some useful pointers for speaker placement, which I found a good starting point for further optimization.
I know this is easy advice to give, and difficult to implement, but, if at all possible, get a massive stone wall behind the speakers!
My experience in the past with DSP (Accuphase digital equalizers, used digital in, digital out) was that DSP has a negative impact on sound quality with all the additional processing (even if only in the digital domain) which outweighs any supposed sound quality benefits. A classic room optimization seems to me to be a safer bet (despite Stereophile's latest review of an Accuphase digital equalizer).
 

Amir

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May 3, 2021
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My experience in the past with DSP (Accuphase digital equalizers, used digital in, digital out) was that DSP has a negative impact on sound quality with all the additional processing (even if only in the digital domain) which outweighs any supposed sound quality benefits. A classic room optimization seems to me to be a safer bet (despite Stereophile's latest review of an Accuphase digital equalizer).
I have worked with Accuphase DSP ,DSP maybe useful for many audiophiles but in my setup i do not use it.
 

PGA

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Dec 29, 2013
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I agree that the DSP done on a miniDSP, DEQX, Accuphase, DIRAC ... or even a convolution filter designed by REW running on a PC does perhaps more harm than good, especially in a small to medium size room where the Schroeder Frequency is rather high. I also went the route of trying mastering quality level analogue EQ. This does little to fix room issues as you need many narrow bands to even start the project.

The only real fix for a small room is to get a bigger room with a much lower Schroeder Frequency. That said, the level of DSP that can be done today on a PC with a convolution filter designed by Audiolense or Acourate is a whole other story, and at least in my case this made a huge positive difference.

This is the link to the book Mitch Barnett wrote on the subject.

And this is the link to his website.

I have absolutely no affiliation with Mitch, but I can tell you my experience working with him on my system has been eye opening. Most/all audio equipment has only a fraction of the computing power that you need to run a proper convolution filter. Also, REW is great for measurements and for designing basic filters, but it's not the correct tool if you're looking to really elevate your system's performance.

I too spent 100s of hours and many 10s of thousands of dollars trying to get my room to sound better. I even was lucky enough to have Andrew Jones come to my home twice. He's got to be one of the brightest and nicest persons in this business. But in the end, below the Schroeder Frequency, it's the room not the speakers (or much less your cables, power conditioners, DAC or amplifiers) that is in charge.
 

Amir

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May 3, 2021
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www.amiraudio.com
List of Cables I have heard :
All cables were top of the line models
Purist Audio
Nordost
Furutech
Skogrand
Acoustic Revive
fadel art
van den hul



The Skogrand Stravinsky was far better than all of other cables.
the midrange shines like diamonds and no other cables even come close.

I think the TAD Reference/Skogrand midrange will shock you.
 

SCAudiophile

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Sep 11, 2010
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3 other great combinations I've have owned or heard with TAD R1 Mk2 speakers (my own pair and also the friend who bought them):

Elrod Signature Gold (traditional pair with matching Sig Gold jumpers)
Elrod Signature Gold (full external bi-wire or shotgun (2pair) bi-wire)
Elrod Statement Gold with Masters Series bespoken jumpers to match

and another in use by someone I know who has R1 Mk2 and another person I know with TAD CR-1 Mk2:

Elrod Master Series Statement Gold and Masters Series Diamond.

I've heard others on the post above and they are also great choices but those owners' comments are the best source of info.
 

Stef

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Jan 10, 2021
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Paris / France
My system is composed of TAD CR1tx bi-amped by 2 TAD M1000 in mono and I had the opportunity to use / compare the following speaker cables:

* Nordost Odin 1 in 6m (borrowed) silver
* Kimber Kable Kimber KS 3038 in 4m (purchased 2nd hand) silver
* TAD-SC040M in 4m (purchased new) copper
* Waycables Endless+ in 4,6m (purchased new) silver

I only want to comment on my experience in my system and share my preference among those 4 speaker cables since it was extremely easy to pick up the differences through the amazing CR1. Also, I’ve never changed my speakers’ position during the different listening sessions. I’m not a professional just a simple audiophile and music lover…

The TAD were very neutral, a kind of all-rounder easy to forget, transparent, solid body but with somehow a smaller soundstage than the other cables and (maybe) a bit boring too. The Odin were at the opposite spectrum but “too much” for me; While extremely fast and transparent with a solid bottom end the deep emotion wasn’t there as if everything was exaggerated. The Kimber had a good balance overall between the details, precision of imaging and emotion but without the bottom end of the 2 previous one.

I have selected the Waycables Endless+ for my system. I find the flow absolutely amazing and it conveys all the emotions that the CR1 are able to produce when well driven. The Endless+ speaker cables can be described as fast, detailed with an immersive soundstage, free from stress enabling you to deep dive into the music with serious goosebumps. If you have a distributor of this boutique brand from Serbia in your area I really recommend to give a try…
 

Amir

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2021
803
620
160
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Tehran, Iran
www.amiraudio.com
My system is composed of TAD CR1tx bi-amped by 2 TAD M1000 in mono and I had the opportunity to use / compare the following speaker cables:

* Nordost Odin 1 in 6m (borrowed) silver
* Kimber Kable Kimber KS 3038 in 4m (purchased 2nd hand) silver
* TAD-SC040M in 4m (purchased new) copper
* Waycables Endless+ in 4,6m (purchased new) silver

I only want to comment on my experience in my system and share my preference among those 4 speaker cables since it was extremely easy to pick up the differences through the amazing CR1. Also, I’ve never changed my speakers’ position during the different listening sessions. I’m not a professional just a simple audiophile and music lover…

The TAD were very neutral, a kind of all-rounder easy to forget, transparent, solid body but with somehow a smaller soundstage than the other cables and (maybe) a bit boring too. The Odin were at the opposite spectrum but “too much” for me; While extremely fast and transparent with a solid bottom end the deep emotion wasn’t there as if everything was exaggerated. The Kimber had a good balance overall between the details, precision of imaging and emotion but without the bottom end of the 2 previous one.

I have selected the Waycables Endless+ for my system. I find the flow absolutely amazing and it conveys all the emotions that the CR1 are able to produce when well driven. The Endless+ speaker cables can be described as fast, detailed with an immersive soundstage, free from stress enabling you to deep dive into the music with serious goosebumps. If you have a distributor of this boutique brand from Serbia in your area I really recommend to give a try…
I agree you about Nordost cable ,
Nordost is very solid/powerful , big , Transparent but with fast decay and less emotion . The Midrange of Nordost Odin 2 is not even close to Skogrand Stravinsky.
Skogrand Midrange is velvet , emotional , highly transparent and hot/immediate , i think skogrand midrange outperform all speaker cables on the world.

skogrand midrange has both pure emotion and energy than no other cable come close
 
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Stef

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Jan 10, 2021
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I agree you about Nordost cable ,
Nordost is very solid/powerful , big , Transparent but with fast decay and less emotion . The Midrange of Nordost Odin 2 is not even close to Skogrand Stravinsky.
Skogrand Midrange is velvet , emotional , highly transparent and hot/immediate , i think skogrand midrange outperform all speaker cables on the world.

skogrand midrange has both pure emotion and energy than no other cable come close
Also agree on the fast decay from Odin. Listening to Pink Floyd Sheep intro (from Animals) the Fender Rhodes notes disappear too fast while it should stay longer in the air and give a wonderful 3D feeling...
Never had the opportunity to listen to skogrand in my system
 
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Amir

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May 3, 2021
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Tehran, Iran
www.amiraudio.com
Also agree on the fast decay from Odin. Listening to Pink Floyd Sheep intro (from Animals) the Fender Rhodes notes disappear too fast while it should stay longer in the air and give a wonderful 3D feeling...
Never had the opportunity to listen to skogrand in my system
Nordost Odin 2 vs Stravinsky

Nordost is like high power high feedback high bandwidths solidstate amplifier , very solid very fast , high resolution, the timing and music flow is fully under control , all thing is ok but no music, no soul, no emotion.
I should say Nordost cables outperform other cables easily and in my idea Nordost is one of best but skogrand is another world.

I think no other cable come close to skogrand stravinsky when you listen to TAD reference, matching of Skogrand and TAD is perfect.

the midrange shines like diamond when you listen to TAD Reference with Skogrand Stravinsky.
Pure energy pure emotion real transparency
This is the voice of god.
 

kimurastanley

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Mar 16, 2019
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Singapore
I am not into megabuck cables. Had been exploring different cables for the past few months.

I found SAEC Stratosphere and AET Evidence, both are Japanese brands sound good with TAD.
SAEC being more bold and dense and AET sounds more airy and open.
 

Raker24

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Jul 27, 2020
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I'm also not into megabuck cables. In anticipation of the TAD D700 SACD/CD player/DAC, which I've ordered, I have been trying various cables in my system. Tried a Shunyata power cable (too much noise reduction, reduced dynamics as well), Kubala Sosna top of the line USB cable (good cable, but it has been bypassed by other brands recently), Audioquest Thunderbird interconnect (not musical at all, in my opinion, despite all the positive reviews), and, very recently, several power cables and interconnects from the French company Absolue Créations. They've just renewed their line, with several new models. The Versailles Mark II power cable is excellent, with custom Furutech NCF plugs (I bought one). I'm now trying their new top of the line power cable TIM Absolue (not yet on their web site). Looking to try the TIM Absolue interconnects as well, soon I hope. Very musical, they are very interesting, but require a very long run in. The adventure continues .....
 

kimurastanley

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Mar 16, 2019
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Singapore
Congrat on the incoming D700.

I heard good thing about Absolue Créations before. How is the price range?
Also heard praise on Esprit cables before. Do you have chance to audition that as well. French brand
 
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Raker24

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Jul 27, 2020
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Absolue Créations has a very wide range, from relatively inexpensive to still reasonably priced but more expensive cables. For example, their previous top of the line power cable, the Versailles Mark II, is around Euros 3,000 for 1.3 meters in France. Their new TIM Absolue power cable is around double the price of this, though. Esprit seems interesting, but their top of the line power cable, l'Esprit, is around double again the price of the TIM Absolue. Planning to try Esprit cables as well (in the lower ranges), but I haven't got around to it yet.
 

Stef

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2021
84
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Paris / France
I'm also not into megabuck cables. Following my recent incredible experience with the Way Cables (https://waycables.com) handmade speaker cables I have ordered a full set of 9 analogue and digital audio cables (power cables / XLR / USB / AES-EBU). I should receive everything by the end of the year and will be replacing step by step all my existing audio cables . Based on what I have heard using the Endless+ speaker cables I’m hoping for a big positive impact on my overall system. I know by experience that TAD components are extremely sensitive to cables changes so it should bring some interesting fun
 
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