Neutral power amp recommendations? (part 2)

[vermaxis]

I thought I'd create a new post vs. my previous post since it's been over 6 months, some pieces in my system have changed and I have new (lower) financial requirements.

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50-60db).

Looking for:
- something more neutral and detailed without being cold or analytical
- a low noise floor
- sound good at low volumes
- bass that's detailed rather than forceful
- I *love* expansive soundstage
- solid state, no tubes
- nothing that runs hot (only slightly warm is ok due to my room)
- budget ~$15k
- willing to buy used

Some previous likes: Simaudio MOON 761 (felt very inviting, smooth yet detailed), NAD M23 (good all around), Van Alstine M225 (great soundstage but some fit and finish issues turned me off)
Some previous dislikes: Mola Mola Perca (sounded very rounded and closed off), Parasound A21+ (don't remember much, just didn't seem very detailed), Primare 35.2 (struck me as boring), Benchmark AHB2 (some treble and vocals were spiky and sibilant), Bel Canto Ref 600M (bass incredibly overwhelming)

Current setup
Source: Antipodes K50
DAC: Playback Designs MPD-8
Preamp: Classe Delta Pre
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave X
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

 

[WLGMuzza]

You could consider the MusikLab M300s. They're pretty rare in themselves, but if you can't find a pair directly, locate and purchase a set of Gamut M250s and send them to Michael Edinger for upgrading to the latest spec. There are some great reviews on the M250s themselves, worth checking out, and this thread. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/gamut-m250i-mono-blocks-vs.30073/.

Good luck!

 

[chuck]

I think McIntosh MC611 amps with that budget would be a good choice. I heard them at the Synergistic Research factory driving Magico M3s. I would also audition the Boulder 861. I have not heard the 861 but have had a Boulder 3060 for years and a 2060 before that.

 

[GSOphile]

I use a Luxman M-10X to drive my Magico S3s. I listen at what most would call medium volumes. To my ear this amp is neutral to slightly sweet, detailed, and punchy. Based on your post, I think you'd like it.

 

[Atmasphere]

I thought I'd create a new post vs. my previous post since it's been over 6 months, some pieces in my system have changed and I have new (lower) financial requirements.

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50-60db).

Looking for:
- something more neutral and detailed without being cold or analytical
- a low noise floor
- sound good at low volumes
- bass that's detailed rather than forceful
- I *love* expansive soundstage
- solid state, no tubes
- nothing that runs hot (only slightly warm is ok due to my room)
- budget ~$15k
- willing to buy used

Some previous likes: Simaudio MOON 761 (felt very inviting, smooth yet detailed), NAD M23 (good all around), Van Alstine M225 (great soundstage but some fit and finish issues turned me off)
Some previous dislikes: Mola Mola Perca (sounded very rounded and closed off), Parasound A21+ (don't remember much, just didn't seem very detailed), Primare 35.2 (struck me as boring), Benchmark AHB2 (some treble and vocals were spiky and sibilant), Bel Canto Ref 600M (bass incredibly overwhelming)

Current setup
Source: Antipodes K50
DAC: Playback Designs MPD-8
Preamp: Classe Delta Pre
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave X
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

There are class D amps out there that fulfill your list.

Any idea what sort of power you need?

 

[vermaxis]

There are class D amps out there that fulfill your list.

Any idea what sort of power you need?

Since I listen at low volumes and my speakers are 90db @ 4 ohms I don’t think I need too much power. I’ve had 100W amps in here that seemed like they were just fine. My previous amp was 350W at 4 ohms.

Only amp that I’ve tried that seemed like it was too much - the bass was just completely overwhelming - was the Bel Canto 600M monos which are 600W @ 4 ohms. I know wattage doesn’t tell the whole story but that was my experience.

 

[Gregm]

Only amp that I’ve tried that seemed like it was too much - the bass was just completely overwhelming - was the Bel Canto 600M monos which are 600W @ 4 ohms. I know wattage doesn’t tell the whole story but that was my experience.

Excessive perceived bass may be due to room modes rather than actually pronounced bass -- but I'm sure you know that.

Back to your amp question, IMO the Gamuts mentioned above are a good (used) contender, but they are an old model that needs to be revised as mentioned above.
OTOH, Atmasphere (see Ralph above) makes nice sounding D--class amps that you can purchase new.
I also like the NAD23 you mentioned -- in fact, I would keep that high on my short-list given its good performance & relatively low acquisition price. True, a NAD lacks the lustre of exotic hi-end (as does D-class, still), but it will do the job IMO.

Final comment: from what I remember of your pre connected to a classe amp, the result was a bit on the harsh side... As your budget is reasonably high, if you go for NAD or Atma or similar, you'll have lots left over for a stellar pre, either active or passive.

 

[Atmasphere]

Since I listen at low volumes and my speakers are 90db @ 4 ohms I don’t think I need too much power. I’ve had 100W amps in here that seemed like they were just fine. My previous amp was 350W at 4 ohms.

Only amp that I’ve tried that seemed like it was too much - the bass was just completely overwhelming - was the Bel Canto 600M monos which are 600W @ 4 ohms. I know wattage doesn’t tell the whole story but that was my experience.

Gregm makes a good point about room nodes. Standing Waves can reinforce creating way too much bass out of a system that at the speakers plays flat.

With that sort of power you have plenty of good choices out there in class D. I have a set of class D amps in my system that supplanted a set of tube amps. Same smooth involving mids and highs, actually better depth perception and no heat- I don't miss the tube amps at all.

 

[chuck]

I also often listen at low volume, mainly classical. I still want to hear all the instruments and voices in a wide and deep soundstage. The amp still must have the speed and control over all the drivers. The best amp at low volume I have ever heard is the Boulder 3060. I don't have to turn the volume down on forte nor up on piannissimo. The noise floor is non-existent, 135db SNR, so everything is audible even at very very low volume.

 

[hifilife]

Have you treated your room yet? If not, start there.

 

[aLLeARS]

I’ve been using the Atma-Sphere Class D’s for several years. I find them extremely neutral sounding on my 99dB horn speakers. I went from SET and OTL tube amps to these and found them to be the best sounding amps that I have used with these speakers. They have incredible resolution, natural midrange, open top-end and great bass control. I like them so much that I bought a second pair for bi-amping. They sound even better wired directly to the drivers with no crossover. It’s the most detailed, accurate and musical combination that I have heard.

I recently tried a pair of First Watt SIT-3’s with this bi-amp setup. Thinking that the SIT-3’s zero feedback minimalist design would sound even better than the Class D’s on my 99dB efficient speakers.

However, the Class D’s sound better in every metric. Better dynamics and imaging, more low-level detail, higher resolution, more accurate midrange and treble, and much better bass. Overall, a better and more musical amp with these speakers.

The only thing that I miss about a tube amp is the ability to act as a current source and put out more power as the speaker impedance rises. These drivers have an impedance bump at around 50Hz on the woofers and a shelving impedance rise in the high frequency range of the H.F horns. When connected directly to the amps with no crossover, they benefit from the additional SPL in the frequency extremes provided by a tube amp. However, no tube amp that I have tried has the resolution or ability to accurately control the drivers that these Class D’s do.

Not having to deal with tube amps’ heat and maintenance, as well as the low idle current draw of Class D is an additional benefit. I leave the Class D’s on 24/7 and my system is always “warmed up” and ready to go. Which particularly suits my early morning cup of coffee/listening routine. I find nothing better than starting every day by listening to music.

 

[Holmz]

I’ve been using the Atma-Sphere Class D’s for several years. I find them extremely neutral sounding on my 99dB horn speakers. I went from SET and OTL tube amps to these and found them to be the best sounding amps that I have used with these speakers. They have incredible resolution, natural midrange, open top-end and great bass control. I like them so much that I bought a second pair for bi-amping. They sound even better wired directly to the drivers with no crossover. It’s the most detailed, accurate and musical combination that I have heard.
…

How are you doing the active XO part?

I thought I'd create a new post vs. my previous post since it's been over 6 months, some pieces in my system have changed and I have new (lower) financial requirements.

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50-60db).

Looking for:
- something more neutral and detailed without being cold or analytical
- a low noise floor
- sound good at low volumes
- bass that's detailed rather than forceful
- I *love* expansive soundstage
- solid state, no tubes
- nothing that runs hot (only slightly warm is ok due to my room)
- budget ~$15k
- willing to buy used

Some previous likes: Simaudio MOON 761 (felt very inviting, smooth yet detailed), NAD M23 (good all around), Van Alstine M225 (great soundstage but some fit and finish issues turned me off)
Some previous dislikes: Mola Mola Perca (sounded very rounded and closed off), Parasound A21+ (don't remember much, just didn't seem very detailed), Primare 35.2 (struck me as boring), Benchmark AHB2 (some treble and vocals were spiky and sibilant), Bel Canto Ref 600M (bass incredibly overwhelming)

Current setup
Source: Antipodes K50
DAC: Playback Designs MPD-8
Preamp: Classe Delta Pre
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave X
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

While I have a lot of time for Ralph’s work… the Lyngdorf TDAI integrated amps have built in room correction, and might be worth looking at.

 

[aLLeARS]

How are you doing the active XO part?

@Holmz, Using a Pass Labs XVR-1 set at 880Hz 2 pole, low Q for both woofer and H.F. horn. The H.F. horn has a series RCL with variable level control across it that eliminates the 3kHz resonant peak.

 

[Jambo]

Just wondering if you considered your Pre’s matching brother, the Classe Audio Delta Stereo Power Amp, just a guess but there likely to be reasonable synergy with the Delta Pre-amp you already have. Seems to be in your budget.

I have CH A1.5 amp, there is the previous model A1, virtually identical apart from the bigger Transformer and caps in the A1.5. There is A1 on Audiogon (I only checked 1 ad), for $12k used. That will be very high quality transparent, neutral amp.

Well that’s a couple of different suggestions to check out & try.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

 

[Tascam]

I thought I'd create a new post vs. my previous post since it's been over 6 months, some pieces in my system have changed and I have new (lower) financial requirements.

About me: I have aggressive tinnitus and it is triggered pretty easily by harsh highs. I do all my listening in quiet at low volumes (~50-60db).

Looking for:
- something more neutral and detailed without being cold or analytical
- a low noise floor
- sound good at low volumes
- bass that's detailed rather than forceful
- I *love* expansive soundstage
- solid state, no tubes
- nothing that runs hot (only slightly warm is ok due to my room)
- budget ~$15k
- willing to buy used

Some previous likes: Simaudio MOON 761 (felt very inviting, smooth yet detailed), NAD M23 (good all around), Van Alstine M225 (great soundstage but some fit and finish issues turned me off)
Some previous dislikes: Mola Mola Perca (sounded very rounded and closed off), Parasound A21+ (don't remember much, just didn't seem very detailed), Primare 35.2 (struck me as boring), Benchmark AHB2 (some treble and vocals were spiky and sibilant), Bel Canto Ref 600M (bass incredibly overwhelming)

Current setup
Source: Antipodes K50
DAC: Playback Designs MPD-8
Preamp: Classe Delta Pre
Speakers: Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand Reference (90db, 4ohm)
Power: Transparent Powerwave X
Cabling: Various, no single loom (yet). Have Raven Audio, Transparent, Wireworld, FTA, Inakustik, Acoustic Revive

Thanks in advance!

McIntosh MC462

 

[jeffzhang]

Bricasti M15