Neutrality of tone and width of timbral palette

Al M.

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One of my most profound and educative audiophile experiences was not even remotely planned as one. Two decades ago when I was living in the Netherlands I was attending two live concerts with music of contemporary classical composer Alfred Schnittke. I was so in love with the music that I decided to follow the ensemble with the same program to two different locations. The first event was in the small hall of the main Utrecht classical concert venue (Vredenburg). The sound was rich and warm, with a beguiling wooden tone of strings and gutsy, golden-glowing brass. The second event was in Rotterdam, and I was sitting a bit further from the stage. The sound could not have been more different: it was bright, somewhat thin, even a bit cold; the crystalline clarity of sound on the other hand was enticing.

Was it less 'musical' in the second venue because it was less 'warm' or even 'cold' sounding? Of course not. It were the same players as at the other location, and they played precisely the same music on the same instruments just as well and dedicated as there. In my mind this calls into question the whole idea of 'warm and musical', as a combined term, an idea that is often expressed in audiophile circles including this board.

These two events, which started out as a purely musical journey (I just wanted to hear the music live twice), turned into a profound learning experience with respect to the huge timbral variety that live sound can entail. I have had similar experiences with concert hall acoustics on other occasions, but this one was especially powerful since it featured the same music with the same performers in different venues. Certainly, in many concert halls (depending on the seating position) the sound is indeed rather warm, as it was in the first venue visited, but obviously it is not always so.

This brings me to a comparison of different D/A converters in my system (courtesy of Goodwin's High End) that was astonishing in this respect. I compared my 20-year old (albeit modified) Wadia 12 with the NAD M51 and the Hegel HD25 DAC. While both DACs had a much fuller bass than the Wadia 12, they were musically less lively than that old unit, which excluded them for me from purchase. Yet among other things I also noticed the following: while all three DACs sounded similar in tonal balance on, for example, Günther Wand's 1996 recording of Bruckner's 5th symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic (RCA), a rather dark and full sounding recording, the sound considerably diverged on the recording of the same symphony with the same conductor but the Cologne Philharmonic 20 years earlier (Sony, 24-bit processing from analog tape). While strings and woodwinds sounded quite warm, the brass, especially trumpets, sounded bright and somewhat thin and brittle on the Wadia while it sounded much fuller on the other two DACs. Especially on the Hegel HD25 it sounded very similar to the Berlin brass in that acoustic even though the other DACs made a clear distinction! Thus, the Hegel compressed the timbral palette, also compared to the NAD -- and listening to more recordings with orchestral brass revealed that they all sounded similar on the Hegel. Until it became boring to me. Why should all brass sound the same? Nonetheless, since also the NAD made the brass sound fuller on the older Bruckner recording, yet not quite to the same extent as the Hegel, and the comparison was especially stark in the opening of Bruckner's 3rd from the same CD set, I was inclined to think that perhaps the old Wadia 12 showed some weakness here.

Yet when I tried the Berkeley Alpha DAC2 at home, I was surprised that, while the brass on the Bruckner 5th with Wand/Berlin Philharmonic sounded at least as full as with the Wadia 12, the brass on the older Bruckner set sounded just as bright and thin! The Berkeley DAC is designed by people who have a stellar reputation in pro audio (think Pacific Microsonics A/D converters) and thus are presumably interested in neutrality; also, the Berkeley DAC has the reputation of being the best of all the four converters tested (and it was, as it turned out). This suggested to me that the brass reproduction on that older Bruckner recording was not a weakness, but simply a faithful reproduction of what was on there. I concluded that both the Berkeley and the old Wadia probably got it right, while the NAD and the Hegel both were coloring the sound towards more richness, the Hegel the most (no doubt the Hegel DAC will be a great choice for people who want such a sound). The Berkeley though was much more refined, resolved and detailed than the Wadia, had much better and blacker bass than even the NAD and the Hegel, and had the same liveliness as the Wadia (finally a match for that converter's 'enthusiasm'!). So its purchase was a no-brainer for me.

The Wadia was also not able to quite the same extent as the Berkeley DAC to portray tonal saturation when it was present on the recording. Recently I was surprised how warm and palpably 'wooden' the sound of Maxwell Davies' 4th Naxos Quartet (on a Naxos CD) through the Berkeley DAC was. And just last week, upon listening to the CD of Shostakovich's 14th symphony conducted by Mariss Jansons, I was taken aback by how powerful and richly saturated in tone the voices of solo bass and soprano were (the symphony is written for orchestra and the two solo voices). On a number of recordings voices sound similar, yet on others much brighter, lighter and even thinner (obviously, it also depends on the characters of the voices themselves, not just on recorded acoustics). Similarly, other string quartet recordings differ greatly in timbre from the aforementioned quartet through my system *), up to a 'stringy' and bleached-out tone (the recent recording of Ferneyhough's complete quartets by the Arditti Quartet).

Yet of course my DAC will be matched by a number of other high grade D/A converters in its ability to portray a wide timbral palette from recordings; it may even be bettered by some in this regard. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if some highly regarded top DACs are more restricted in this particular aspect, somewhat similar to the Hegel HD25 DAC. My observations though are about a larger point in sound reproduction, which links to the live experience of different hall acoustics that I described in the opening of my post.

The larger point is this: Even though sometimes also I wish for a warmer sound reproduction on certain recordings (the 'warm and musical' thing, you know, I am not above this apparently common human desire), ultimately should not 'light' and 'thin' sounds/acoustics on a recording be reproduced as such, if the system demonstrates on other occasions that it is fully capable of producing a rich and fully saturated tone? In light of the vast variety of timbre of live sound in different venues and from different seating positions within the same hall this yields a more realistic and ultimately more satisfying overall experience, in my view.

***

Now here is where in my opinion most equipment reviews are severely deficient (regardless if written by professional reviewers or simply by audio enthusiasts on message boards):

It leaves me unsatisfied when I read that on this or that recording a particular component sounds thinner or more saturated in tone than another one, without specifying in the review how the components that are compared handle a wide timbral palette: Does one always sound warmer or richer than the other, or does one excel in portraying the entire timbral variety through vastly different sounding recordings more than the other? For example, while one component may sound thinner than the other on some recordings, can it sound just as full and saturated in tone as the other on other recordings, and vice versa? The latter question about wide timbral palette appears far more important when evaluating a component's ability to reflect the recorded source, but is rarely addressed in reviews (why for example can you not read about this aspect in any reviews of the NAD, Hegel and Berkeley DACs discussed above?). The painting of all recordings through an audio component with the same brush, either 'rich and warm' or 'cold and analytical', 'full' or 'thin', may not just be wrong, given the wide variety of (unamplified) live and subsequently also recorded sound, but in the long run also plain boring.

In my view the components or systems that are the most 'musical' should not be deemed the ones that always and invariably sound warm or tonally rich and saturated, but the ones that are able to realistically portray the widest timbral spectrum from diverse recordings, from warm to cold, from rich and saturated to light and 'thin'. After all, those components or systems best portray the wide variety of how live music actually can sound, and appear to contribute the least color on their own; they appear to be the most neutral to the sound of the music they are supposed to faithfully reproduce.

What do you think?


_________________________________________

*) That my system as a whole allows for such a wide timbral palette without on its own too much leaning into either the 'warm' or the 'cold' or ''analytical' direction, or compressing all colors in 'neutral' mode, is simply fortunate -- the amp/speaker combo was not chosen by me as the result of personal attention to performance in this respect. I chose the combo of amps and speakers more than 20 years ago for its sheer dynamism (both macro- and micro-dynamics) and liveliness, not for excellence in being able to portray a wide timbral palette (by the way, on my benign speaker load the parallel push-pull triode amps have a tonal balance almost identical to the Spectral DMA 260, which I tested in my system and which is perhaps a reasonable benchmark for neutrality). The removal of electronic noise by the recently acquired BorderPatrol external power supplies for my amps also contributes to timbral differentiation and thus to widening of the timbral spectrum, something that I hadn't anticipated either with that purchase but which I obviously enjoy.
 

RogerD

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"*) That my system as a whole allows for such a wide timbral palette without on its own too much leaning into either the 'warm' or the 'cold' or ''analytical' direction, or compressing all colors in 'neutral' mode, is simply fortunate -- the amp/speaker combo was not chosen by me as the result of personal attention to performance in this respect. I chose the combo of amps and speakers more than 20 years ago for its sheer dynamism (both macro- and micro-dynamics) and liveliness, not for excellence in being able to portray a wide timbral palette (by the way, on my benign speaker load the parallel push-pull triode amps have a tonal balance almost identical to the Spectral DMA 260, which I tested in my system and which is perhaps a reasonable benchmark for neutrality). The removal of electronic noise by the recently acquired BorderPatrol external power supplies for my amps also contributes to timbral differentiation and thus to widening of the timbral spectrum, something that I hadn't anticipated either with that purchase but which I obviously enjoy."

I think your observation and surprise,point you in the right direction. Noise reduction in the system on the whole can have a profound effect as to timbral color and nuance revealed. If the equipment has quality components,the lack of noise will start to perfect the sound,but the underlying typology will always come through. Noise effects equipment and as you reduce the noise the sound will be drawn to the more neutral side. It also will have a profound effect on speaker dispersion and that's were the timbral nuance is revealed in greater amounts. The lack of noise and it's level will reveal what is actually on the recording,thus producing more realism,which after all is what this hobby is all about. Different equipment will have it's own noise level,that is mainly why not all equipment will perform the same when inserted in a system. The sum of the parts is greater then the individual piece.
 

egidius

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Enjoying a long chain of thoughts that I can really follow: the width of colors I find essential regardless of the actual lighting..
My vacuum state spa amp got amazing colors, even though my berning zh270 is more clearly lit.
 

LL21

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Al M,

Very much enjoyed reading about your live concert experiences...that was quite cool to know. thanks. And as for your description regarding the four DACs and your conclusions that a DAC doing its job best might just 'sound different' depending on the CD makes sense to me as well.

The only 'emphasis' I might add is on the improvement I think your Berkeley has made over the older Wadia 12...which is something I have found with my digital as it improved over the years. Although recordings have definitely become more and more broad in how they sound as my digital advanced over the years (including ongoing tweaks to my digital)...I can definitely say that on thinner, lesser recordings...somehow the Zanden DIGS more out of the recording than my older Zanden did...and as a result I do find it 'fuller' not in terms of fullness of mids or something...but rather fuller in detail, depth, layering, which in the end do help 'fill out' the 'audio picture' better. Still may not sound like a MA Recordings CD...but it has made a dramatic improvement to all my CDs making all but a handful exceedingly enjoyable (to me)...whereas before the bottom quartile of CDs was tough to listen to for any length of time.

My two cents. Great thread and thanks for taking the time.
 

Al M.

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I'll offer a wee bit of push back on your comment about reviews by quoting myself from a 2010 review of the Audio Research Ref Phono 2:

"..."Neutral" is an overused attribute in the reviewing lexicon. It is ultimately subjective and without a true baseline -- live music is never outside a venue that imbues itself upon the performance within it. But how to describe a chameleon whose resulting reproduction is more the product of musical context and recording technique than component character? Every piece of gear has its own tonal flavor, but the Reference Phono 2 never drew attention to itself. It did not sound like anything. ..."

Hi Tim,

that is a beautiful quote. I wish one could say this about any audio component.

And yes, from those who've heard the difference, I suspect most will agree that clean (or substantially noise reduced) power has a profound effect on tonal realism. Witness, for example, the Shunyata Typhon.

I absolutely loved your review of the Shunyata Triton/Typhon last year! The Shunyata gear also has found enthusiastic reception on this board, and all this has contributed to my firm resolution to make a Triton my next upgrade, eventually followed by the Typhon. Paul at Goodwin's High End once told me that each one of the clients who had tried out the Typhon had ordered one (I expect the same happening to me). While my old Tice Powerblock 2 may not be as good, this still excellent piece of equipment does make a tremendous difference. The music through the Berkeley DAC is only half as resolved in timbre without the Tice, and the soundstage collapses from fully rectangular to trapezoid (getting narrower towards the back). So yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you and Roger about the importance of clean power. In fact, given my current experience I would go so far that the removal of electronic and acoustic noise (the latter by room treatment) must be the indispensible foundation of any serious system. Later I would also like to upgrade to the new Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC, but the Shunyata gear has to come first. Otherwise, as you say in your review:

"I don’t mean to harsh your buzz, but until you hear your gear without the noise that invariably accompanies its operation, you won’t know what the designers of your components intend them to deliver -- you won’t hear what you paid for."
 

Al M.

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The only 'emphasis' I might add is on the improvement I think your Berkeley has made over the older Wadia 12...which is something I have found with my digital as it improved over the years. Although recordings have definitely become more and more broad in how they sound as my digital advanced over the years (including ongoing tweaks to my digital)...I can definitely say that on thinner, lesser recordings...somehow the Zanden DIGS more out of the recording than my older Zanden did...and as a result I do find it 'fuller' not in terms of fullness of mids or something...but rather fuller in detail, depth, layering, which in the end do help 'fill out' the 'audio picture' better. Still may not sound like a MA Recordings CD...but it has made a dramatic improvement to all my CDs making all but a handful exceedingly enjoyable (to me)...whereas before the bottom quartile of CDs was tough to listen to for any length of time.

Yes, well said. There are still some recordings that make me cringe, but these are few. One of them is the early 1982 digital recording of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony with Haitink/Concertgebouw on Decca (a company that later went on to make stellar digital recordings). In the passages of soft to mid level it sounds o.k., but when fortissimo brass and woodwinds set in the sound is painfully shrill -- when I listened last week I almost put my fingers in my ears. This must be the result of serious jitter in the A/D conversion process. Even the most jitter-free D/A converter is powerless against that, once it is encoded on CD. Hard to believe that this recording won the 1983 Gramophone Award for sound engineering! Compare the gorgeous 1997 digital sound of the same symphony with Jansons/Vienna Philharmonic on EMI; even at high volume my ears still are still bathed in pleasure (soundwise, the music's message is rather disconcerting).
 

RogerD

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"I don’t mean to harsh your buzz, but until you hear your gear without the noise that invariably accompanies its operation, you won’t know what the designers of your components intend them to deliver -- you won’t hear what you paid for."

No truer words were ever spoken about audio reproduction.
 

LL21

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..., as you say in your review:

"I don’t mean to harsh your buzz, but until you hear your gear without the noise that invariably accompanies its operation, you won’t know what the designers of your components intend them to deliver -- you won’t hear what you paid for."

No truer words were ever spoken about audio reproduction.

I have only just begun to appreciate what this means. I stabilized my electronic components sometime early last year after a painstaking 8 year upgrade component at a time. And then mid last year, I discovered HRS, Stillpoints Ultra 5s, Tripoint and Entreq....and it has been a year of removing mechanical, MRI, efi and grounding and other electrical distortions one piece at a time. I cannot honestly say if I have gone about it well..other than I enjoy what I hear, remain shocked by it even after a year's worth of work...and have been advised all the way thru by professionals I trust and several respected members here. And everything said above really surely is true. And yes, it was nice to discover my equipment turned out to be far better than I had even imagined...
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Interesting concepts being discussed here.

Timbral differences (not to mention imaging, time-based effects, etc) in exactly the same music and instruments from venue to venue (not to mention performance to performance and seat to seat): If these timbral differences exist, then can one performance/venue be "warm" and another be "cold?" Of course. One set of acoustics can emphasize lower mids and another can de-emphasize them. And if it is live, unamplified music, can one of those timbral presentations be more "musical" than the other (disregarding the orginal meaning of that term, related to performance not sonics)? I don't think so. I think this observation, which should be obvious, calls into question the validity of "musical" as a valid descriptor of gear/sound. It does the same to the concept of the "original event" as a broad benchmark for quality reproduction. As I've asked before, what event? Where? What seat? The variables are probably greater from seat to seat than they are from Wadia to Berkley. How can this, filtered through the long lens of memory, possibly be a valid benchmark for audio reproduction?

The other interesting concept is "neutrality," not in the objective sense of a comparison of the incoming and out-going signals, but as a subjective characteristic of sound reproduction. I think neutrality is actually more substantive and easier to describe and identify than "musical" or the benchmark of the "original event," and I think that has been exemplified here as well. When a component reveals the differences between recordings more clearly (brass doesn't all sound the same), it is more neutral -- more of the recording is coming through, the component is putting on less of its own sonic stamp. More neutral. More transparent. I'll have to set my objectivist's hat down for a second to say, this is NOT something that can be revealed in and AB/X test. It takes listening over time, to a lot of recordings you're familiar with, but ultimately, I think it is a lot more substantive than "musicality" or the benchmark of the "original event."

Good thread.

Tim
 

JackD201

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I don't take things that literally. If we are talking about live unamplified events there is something that that, by their very nature, don't have. Electro and Electro-mechanical signatures which sadly are present in all recording and reproduction systems. By extension, a "musical" (not a fan of the word's use, I prefer natural sounding) system, as opposed to "Hi-Fi" sounding, is one with low levels of this their introduced artifacts being less objectionable or less distracting in nature. If you want to be ultra-liberal about it then even purposely introduced alterations to the feed towards the goal of making the output more like what one would expect to encounter in nature is fair game, be it in recording OR playback.

Of course this is with the end user's hat on. I'm not an archivist so strict preservation is not mandatory.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I don't take things that literally. If we are talking about live unamplified events there is something that that, by their very nature, don't have. Electro and Electro-mechanical signatures which sadly are present in all recording and reproduction systems. By extension, a "musical" (not a fan of the word's use, I prefer natural sounding) system, as opposed to "Hi-Fi" sounding, is one with low levels of this their introduced artifacts being less objectionable or less distracting in nature. If you want to be ultra-liberal about it then even purposely introduced alterations to the feed towards the goal of making the output more like what one would expect to encounter in nature is fair game, be it in recording OR playback.

Of course this is with the end user's hat on. I'm not an archivist so strict preservation is not mandatory.

I only take it seriously here, where there is a strong contingent that uses musicality, the reproduction of the "original event," etc, as a substitute for data, without clear meaning, and to make a case for the superiority of their personal choices, Some do not seem to accept that those choices are limited by electro-mechanical signatures. I only take it seriously enough to fence with them, which is what we do here. In the world, I take none of it very seriously and find myself in sync with most music lovers in that regard.

Tim
 

RogerD

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To discuss neutrality or musicality one must start from a base and that is the original performance. Then the recording equipment is put in the chain and that is where the original signal can be corrupted. When you have a "noiseless" system it is possible to hear the original eqipment and the engineers setup. The way the performance is setup ie mic placement and anomolies show up if they exist and the recording venue. In short everything the microphone hears and that the mastering engineer allows can be heard. Distortion is given too much attention per se,because there are exceptional recordings from the 1950's that are at a high level and what distinguishes them mostly is the lack of noise in the recording chain. Only when the integral noise is removed from the complete reproduction chain can you suggest this or that recording is musical and that depends on the level of noise in your audio system. It is when that(noiseless) is achieved you can appreciate that real neutrality is a fleeting goal. That is because the orginal equipment used for the recording leaves it's signature a long with the engineers experience,knowledge and individual preferences. And in the end a noiseless system is a preference,because only then can you hear your equipment as it was designed and the designer's preference,and of course your preference.
 
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kinch

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Variables can be more easily controlled in my listening environment than at a live venue. It could be argued that this provides for more accurate sound than even the live event. Can reproduced music be "better" (read: more accurate/less noise) than the real thing?
Undoubtedly noise can be reduced more effectively in our own controlled setting. That leaves accuracy to the recording: if the gear is up to it, and I think the main parameters are speed and timbre, then the recording can be more correct in an acoustic sense than even the live event. Venue variables may be impossible to overcome: where is the acoustically most accurate seat at the Kunsthalle in Basel versus Avery Fisher Hall? Joshua Bell at tenth row floor center measured ave only 65dB (iaudioTool v5.6.3) which I felt wasn't satisfying. Now, if the timbre of his Strad is faithfully reproduced on my system, (which I think it is) compared to reality test, and you have the dynamic range, then speed is key. The speed issue is my impending challenge and I hope to nail it soon with new pre/dac. There's lots of room to improve in my own system. Early indications are: reproduced music can be just as accurate with less venue artifact and therefore more correct.
 

RogerD

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Variables can be more easily controlled in my listening environment than at a live venue. It could be argued that this provides for more accurate sound than even the live event. Can reproduced music be "better" (read: more accurate/less noise) than the real thing?
Undoubtedly noise can be reduced more effectively in our own controlled setting. That leaves accuracy to the recording: if the gear is up to it, and I think the main parameters are speed and timbre, then the recording can be more correct in an acoustic sense than even the live event. Venue variables may be impossible to overcome: where is the acoustically most accurate seat at the Kunsthalle in Basel versus Avery Fisher Hall? Joshua Bell at tenth row floor center measured ave only 65dB (iaudioTool v5.6.3) which I felt wasn't satisfying. Now, if the timbre of his Strad is faithfully reproduced on my system, (which I think it is) compared to reality test, and you have the dynamic range, then speed is key. The speed issue is my impending challenge and I hope to nail it soon with new pre/dac. There's lots of room to improve in my own system. Early indications are: reproduced music can be just as accurate with less venue artifact and therefore more correct.

It is my experience that the amount of noise in the system will effect the speed of transients. I would place the amplifier as more speed critical and then the preamp. Also in a noiseless system differences in reaction time or speed can be clearly heard by what device is used in the circuits of amplifiers or preamps. I use a tube DAC and the speed of the DAC is secondary when compared with the preamp or amplifier. In my system the nuvistor preamp is faster than my tube preamp and about equal to my SS preamps,my amplifiers are SS. So bottom line is I prefer a tube DAC,and a Nuvistor preamp and SS amps,because speed is a very good marker for the lack of noise. YMMV
 

Al M.

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Exactly, Al, exactly.

Proper audio room infrastructure is a necessary condition to getting the most from one's music collection and stereo gear. To my way of thinking this includes 4 related elements: Clean power, no or low distortion signal delivery, an optimized acoustic environment and attention to mechanical vibration. In a sense these are all about frequency management and/or energy control - recognizing the suspects, then ameliorating, mitigating or removing the bad while encouraging the good.

With the sorts of products we're seeing discussed here such as the Stillpoints footers and Aperture acoustic panels, SRA and HRS equipment platforms, the Shunyata power and signal gear, we may be in the Golden Age of audio infrastructure. It's all good.

Perhaps its time for the language of "component level upgrade" to fall out of the lexicon?

O.k., Tim, you have finally convinced me that I have to take care of vibrations, after others here have already pointed out the virtues of doing this. Your detailed review of the SRA equipment platform was engaging, and the described performance impressive. Fortunately, Goodwin's High End from whom I got all my gear and room treatment over the past several years (with the necessary exception of the BorderPatrol power supplies for the amps) has the HRS equipment platforms that you also mention. I suppose Lloyd will have only positive things to say about them here.

I guess the planning for my next upgrades would thus be, in that order (and slowly, given my finances):

1. Shunyata Triton
2. Shunyata Typhon
3. HRS equipment platforms
4. Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC

The fourth upgrade (the only 'audio component') may be the 'sexiest', but logically that needs to wait. I have no doubt that upgrades 1-3 will have a greater effect in my system than upgrade 4 without their prior implementation. All four together should be killer, of course.

My speakers and amps go nowhere, they are here to stay. The interconnects/speaker cables have a very low priority of upgrade; my 20-year old Monster Sigma 2000 are still excellent. Last year I tested MIT cables in my system, and they sounded a bit cleaner and the transients faster, at the same tonal balance. Yet those differences have been more than abolished by the removal of noise with the new BorderPatrol power supplies for my amps and Shunyata Dark Field v2 cable elevators for my speaker cables, and of course these new acquisitions have had numerous additional benefits. So again, noise removal is everything.

It is my experience that the amount of noise in the system will effect the speed of transients.

Indeed, this conforms with the experience that I just described.
 

LL21

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O.k., Tim, you have finally convinced me that I have to take care of vibrations, after others here have already pointed out the virtues of doing this. Your detailed review of the SRA equipment platform was engaging, and ... Goodwin's High End...has the HRS equipment platforms that you also mention. I suppose Lloyd will have only positive things to say about them here.

I guess the planning for my next upgrades would thus be, in that order (and slowly, given my finances):

1. Shunyata Triton
2. Shunyata Typhon
3. HRS equipment platforms
4. Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC

The fourth upgrade (the only 'audio component') may be the 'sexiest', but logically that needs to wait. My speakers and amps go nowhere, they are here to stay.

Hi...yes, HRS is great stuff. I have always liked HRS big platforms. I don't think you'll go wrong with them, nor with Goodwins who are top notch guys as you already know from the sounds of it. I probably first met Paul in the '90s when he was elsewhere in Cambridge...great guy then and great guy now 20+ years later.
 

Al M.

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Hi...yes, HRS is great stuff. I have always liked HRS big platforms. I don't think you'll go wrong with them, nor with Goodwins who are top notch guys as you already know from the sounds of it. I probably first met Paul in the '90s when he was elsewhere in Cambridge...great guy then and great guy now 20+ years later.

Yes, my experience with Paul has been fantastic all around, and I also have had great conversations with and suggestions from Alan Goodwin. I may have paid full price for most -- not all -- of my gear, but with the right advice and the ability to try components at home I may still have ended up spending much less money than if I would have gone through the trial and error of buying second hand from the web. And obviously, I saved myself a lot of pain and disappointment too. I am glad that I have the privilege to be just a 45 minute drive away from such a great dealer.
 

LL21

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Yes, my experience with Paul has been fantastic all around, and I also have had great conversations with and suggestions from Alan Goodwin. I may have paid full price for most -- not all -- of my gear, but with the right advice and the ability to try components at home I may still have ended up spending much less money than if I would have gone through the trial and error of buying second hand from the web. And obviously, I saved myself a lot of pain and disappointment too. I am glad that I have the privilege to be just a 45 minute drive away from such a great dealer.

Great stuff...premium service deserves a premium...a two-way street. I have been loyal to 2 dealers over 20 years and it has always paid dividends in the end. Even when I bought 2nd hand from a private individual...I actually paid my dealer a 'small commission' to take receipt, help on installation, and on potential repairs. I think they appreciate that I may not do 100% of my business with them...and thus this way, the loyalty has gone both ways for years now.
 

Al M.

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Timbral differences (not to mention imaging, time-based effects, etc) in exactly the same music and instruments from venue to venue (not to mention performance to performance and seat to seat): If these timbral differences exist, then can one performance/venue be "warm" and another be "cold?" Of course. One set of acoustics can emphasize lower mids and another can de-emphasize them. And if it is live, unamplified music, can one of those timbral presentations be more "musical" than the other (disregarding the orginal meaning of that term, related to performance not sonics)? I don't think so. I think this observation, which should be obvious, calls into question the validity of "musical" as a valid descriptor of gear/sound. It does the same to the concept of the "original event" as a broad benchmark for quality reproduction. As I've asked before, what event? Where? What seat? The variables are probably greater from seat to seat than they are from Wadia to Berkley. How can this, filtered through the long lens of memory, possibly be a valid benchmark for audio reproduction?

I agree that it is hard to speak of a defined original event. As you say, and as anyone else with extensive concert hall experience will attest, the perceived acoustic and tonal balance varies from row to row, and from seat to seat within a given hall. Add to this the fact that microphones usually are installed in places that do not resemble any audience position in the hall, and often are even hung from the ceiling -- there is no 'seat in the sky' to compare what the microphones capture (balcony seating is usually further from the stage and even higher).

The recording that produces for me the best illusion of a live experience over my system is perhaps Wolfgang Rihm's avantgarde work "Jagden & Formen" (Hunts and Forms) for 23 players. While the illusion is not perfect by any means, the timbres and spatial experience remind me very much of the sound that I heard last year from the ensemble Sound Icon playing other avantgarde music in the Paine Hall of Harvard, in Cambridge. Mass., sitting in the fourth row. Yet this may be just a coincidence; who knows how different the sound might have been had I sat somewhere in the hall where the actual recording of the CD took place. There is no way of knowing what the 'original event' sounded like.

I think instead of being about precisely capturing the elusive 'original event' (who sits where the mikes are actually located, including their height?), audio recording and reproduction can only be about believability. Do the tonal balance and timbres, whatever they may be, 'warm' or 'cold', resemble anything that I have experienced in a concert hall? Is the overall coherence of sound signature through all frequencies believable? Are there audible outliers in the frequency spectrum that spoil the illusion of a live event? For example, a certain prominence of high frequencies relative to the other frequencies will be more believable on a 'colder' recording with a brighter midrange than on a 'warm' sounding one with a more present lower midrange -- the converse with receded high frequencies may be true as well. Do the timbral signatures of diverse orchestral groups or soloists match one another to create a coherent illusion within a single perceived acoustic? The latter question of course will come up in the context of multi-miking, apart from the difficulty of matching spatial and ambient clues from all instruments involved (some multi-miked recordings, including the above mentioned one, excel at all that). The better both the recording and the system are, the more the reproduction will sound believable -- even though the sounds may not precisely resemble the 'original event' from any actual seat in the hall where it took place.

"I was there, it sounds precisely like that" -- such an assertion is difficult to make filtered through, as you say, the long lens of memory.
 
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