New 468 monos

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I know you've always alluded to the contention that the 458 has this tube sensibility. Maybe a liquid, textured quality shared by very few SS amps even at the top draw level. And this has been a critical reason that matched to the Darts ability as SS kings to have way more expansive control than many/all SETs, you're blessed w the best of both worlds.

The Q that I'd like to ask is whether you think Herve is aware of this and has refined the design of these 468 amps to take this further deliberately.

Or whether his design just happens to max the liquid/textured quasi-tubes trait that you love?

I ask because there is a new Robert Koda power amp, his first SS design, and the early buzz is that it may surpass his K15 tubed masterpieces, being more powerful, controlled, consistent and critically "as tube-like as tubes".

I believe there's also another superlative tube amp designer who is cracking this formula of SS matching right up to tubes' fatal attraction.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Marc,

i think Herve has given interviews about this subject, i would not want to speak for him. but my sense is that he has a sonic target in mind but it's not actually tubes or not tubes.

obviously i have given this subject much attention, effort and expense. yes; i do think that darTZeel does attain the best of both worlds, tube and solid state, in terms of being like music and not like a type of amplifier circuit. i'm sure when you are seen as being at the top of that mountain, that others will try and get there too. and maybe succeed.

honestly i've not paid much attention to other solid state amplifiers, and Koda might be great. i've read glowing reports on that product line. could be as good or better than darTZeel. i don't really know.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Mike, there aren't any definitive answers to my Qs. It was just to broaden the discussion. I mean, the 458 looks the "complete" SS amp (if you exclude the behemoth Boulders and Analog Domains etc that beat the Darts on sheer grunt).

I guess maybe the Q is, do you feel the 458 was missing anything, that you wanted more of? And if Fremer's review and rumour hadn't been out there, what would you have been expecting from the 468?

Put it this way, the new flagship Zus are out in 2020. I'm sorely tempted. Reviews of the new version next spkr down say all the right things, w some caveats. However, had I not read these, and Zu didn't offer sale or return, would I take the punt/risk? I'm not sure, esp since I'm so happy as is (and you are w the 458s).

 

[five]

listening to the series '1' 108's these last 2 weeks 'musically' i mostly forget the 458's are not here.
...
i've consciously not played big music with the 108, so there is that. but the 108 is not just a 'fill in'......it's terrific.

Mike, thanks for sharing that. It was interesting and useful (a least to me). I have a 108 waiting to be used once our renovations are complete.

I’d also like to add my congratulations on the 468s to the others that have already been posted. I’m looking forward to reading your impressions on them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

btw; i want to strongly retract my 'big music with the 108' comment. this afternoon i've thrown track after track of big music at the 108 and it's been superb. amazing.

large orchestral, heavy metal, Tool's "Invincible"......wow!

sorry to even think it would have a problem. not that the 458's would not bring more, but the 108 is rock solid on big music!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, thanks for sharing that. It was interesting and useful (a least to me). I have a 108 waiting to be used once our renovations are complete.

I’d also like to add my congratulations on the 468s to the others that have already been posted. I’m looking forward to reading your impressions on them.

congrats on the 108, it plays with the big boys and looks them in the eye!

.........with both it's red eyes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sure Mike, there aren't any definitive answers to my Qs. It was just to broaden the discussion. I mean, the 458 looks the "complete" SS amp (if you exclude the behemoth Boulders and Analog Domains etc that beat the Darts on sheer grunt).

I guess maybe the Q is, do you feel the 458 was missing anything, that you wanted more of? And if Fremer's review and rumour hadn't been out there, what would you have been expecting from the 468?

Put it this way, the new flagship Zus are out in 2020. I'm sorely tempted. Reviews of the new version next spkr down say all the right things, w some caveats. However, had I not read these, and Zu didn't offer sale or return, would I take the punt/risk? I'm not sure, esp since I'm so happy as is (and you are w the 458s).

if the world ended and the 458's were my last amp, i would feel like i had it all amplifier wise.

expect to feel the same about the 468's. but give me time. already answered the other question a few posts back.

 

[Lagonda]

Fremer is a data point. if his feedback did not fit with my other data points i'd view it differently. we have both owned the 458's and 18NS for many years. on this subject i'm pretty in line with him, and can relate to how he compares other amps to the 458. so it's familiar ground to me.

hey; the last time i interacted with Fremer he called me a liar. what's not to like with that?

Yes i remember that, one of the reasons i have soured on Fremer. For
many years i took everything he wrote to be the absolute truth and have
made purchases on his recommendations. After his recent spouts on
WBF and some of his videos i have come to realize that he is a showman
with a big ego and a sometimes rude behavior when someone does not
agree with him, or has not placated him enough. Read his older VYGER
review https://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-corner-96 , where he calls Giuseppe Viola the designer “Gnome-like” with to much free time in the metal shop. In stark contrast to Marc Gomez where a personal relationship clearly biases any review toward SAT products. These days i analyze any Fremer review for hidden agendas, but still enjoy his excellent very imaginative writing

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . In stark contrast to Marc Gomez where a personal relationship clearly biases any review toward SAT products.

. . .

I cannot agree that a personal relationship with a designer necessarily “clearly” biases a reviewer toward the product.

I think such a relationship raises a question, but absent any evidence of actual bias or favoritism I think your supposition is invalid.

Michael bought, uses and loves personally the SAT tonearms. What’s wrong with that?

Favorable reviews thereof by Michael do not to me, without more, prove or even suggest pro-SAT bias.

How do you know their personal relationship preceded Michael’s favorable reviews? Maybe Michael developed a relationship with Marc after Michael decided he liked the product and because Michael liked the product originally?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I cannot agree that a personal relationship with a designer necessarily “clearly” biases a reviewer toward the product.

I think such a relationship raises a question, but absent any evidence of actual bias or favoritism I think your supposition is invalid.

Michael bought, uses and loves personally the SAT tonearms. What’s wrong with that?

Favorable reviews thereof by Michael do not to me, without more, prove or even suggest pro-SAT bias.

How do you know their personal relationship preceded Michael’s favorable reviews? Maybe Michael developed a relationship with Marc after Michael decided he liked the product and because Michael liked the product originally?

i would very much hope that we just leave this subject alone completely on a nice friendly darTZeel thread, and go trash some other thread with this stuff.

please.

i guess i can open a new thread when my amps arrive and leave the shreds here to rot.

flail away if you must.

i come here for fun only. tomorrow at work i have to deal with sh*t. but i do get paid to do it.

sorry. i was feeling so good.

 

[Lagonda]

I cannot agree that a personal relationship with a designer necessarily “clearly” biases a reviewer toward the product.

I think such a relationship raises a question, but absent any evidence of actual bias or favoritism I think your supposition is invalid.

Michael bought, uses and loves personally the SAT tonearms. What’s wrong with that?

Favorable reviews thereof by Michael do not to me, without more, prove or even suggest pro-SAT bias.

How do you know their personal relationship preceded Michael’s favorable reviews? Maybe Michael developed a relationship with Marc after Michael decided he liked the product and because Michael liked the product originally?

Yes it is hard to prove, he surely loves the products, and we will
probably never see a bad review about any of them from his side.
Or about any product from company’s with large marketing/advertising
budgets, nobody from Ortofon or Wilson will ever be called “Gnome-like”
when reviewed by Fremer

 

[Lagonda]

i would very much hope that we just leave this subject alone completely on a nice friendly darTZeel thread, and go trash some other thread with this stuff.

please.

i guess i can open a new thread when my amps arrive and leave the shreds here to rot.

flail away if you must.

i come here for fun only. tomorrow at work i have to deal with sh*t. but i do get paid to do it.

Sorry Mike, i posted reply to Ron before reading this !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Sorry Mike, i posted reply to Ron before reading this !

no worries, i over-reacted a little. we move on.

 

[SuperDave]

btw; i want to strongly retract my 'big music with the 108' comment. this afternoon i've thrown track after track of big music at the 108 and it's been superb. amazing.

large orchestral, heavy metal, Tool's "Invincible"......wow!

sorry to even think it would have a problem. not that the 458's would not bring more, but the 108 is rock solid on big music!

The drums!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the 468's, when not upgraded from the 458's, are supplied with 20 amp I.E.C. outlets. so my superb Evolution Acoustics TRPC's (triple run power cords) needed to have the IEC plugs switched to the 20 amp from 15 amp.

last night my friend and power grid expert Joe Pittman of Kosmic Audio.......

http://www.kosmic.us/

........came over with the Furutech NCF 20 amp plugs i had ordered and swapped them out in anticipation of the pending (i believe they sit in Zurich at the moment in transit to me) arrival of my new 468's.

one advantage of the 20 amp plug is a much more secure fit into the outlet from the plug, which can't hurt.

 

[spiritofmusic]

More of those damn snakes! Tang, look away now.

 

[KeithR]

Put it this way, the new flagship Zus are out in 2020. I'm sorely tempted. Reviews of the new version next spkr down say all the right things, w some caveats. However, had I not read these, and Zu didn't offer sale or return, would I take the punt/risk? I'm not sure, esp since I'm so happy as is (and you are w the 458s).

I found the CTH-8550 a sublime match with Zu. But I'm not sure you'd like it knowing your SET preference.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

finally; 468 delivery scheduled for Friday.

was trying for today but U.S.Custom's moved at their normal glacial pace, so my amp moving help i would have had tomorrow (my son at Thanksgiving) won't be around Friday. so i'll have to beg someone to help move those bad boys.

but at least they will be sitting in my own garage.

it's all good.

 

[Steve Williams]

I found the CTH-8550 a sublime match with Zu. But I'm not sure you'd like it knowing your SET preference.

Give the shipper $25 to put them in your barn. It always works for me. Forget the garage as that involves another trip

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Give the shipper $25 to put them in your barn. It always works for me. Forget the garage as that involves another trip

assume you were responding to me not Keith.

#1-i won't be home, i will be working. if i'm not home don't want to have anyone else touch these.
#2-having the crates in the barn does not solve the problem. i still cannot lift 150 pound amplifiers out of the crates myself. or....even load the 400 pound pallet onto my gear dolly safely to move the crate into my listening room.
#3-have to position the amps on my Tana active platforms.

i'll figure it out.