new home for my Magico Q1

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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#21
View attachment 7923
INCREDIBLE. Lots to learn from here. Thanks for taking the time...and enjoy! Hope to see the pictures of the final setup as well.
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#23
Very nice!!!

Is that a track for a drop-down projection screen just in front of the glass doors?

Lee
yes. I have a 100" Stewart Firehawk SST screen, 2.35 format. Projector is a JVC D-ILA X70R.

Great looking room stereo. I see you have what appears to be glass doors behind the speakers, along with what seems to be some kind of diffusor. Is that what they are?
Yes, it is SMT Acrylic wing diffusers. They work as well as wood one and good thing is that I still have a view. I have 4 of them to avoid having a large reflective surface with the windows. Here a better pic, in a Devialet showroom. All diffusors from the wing family (V-wing on the side, S-wing on the ceiling) measure very special: unlike all other diffusers I know on the market they don't need 7-9 feet distance to work well. 2 feet are enough. At Munich show, Marten was using them acrylic wings, with people sitting 20cm from the diffusers.
transp.JPG

Did you take any measurements of the Q1s?

It would be interesting to see how they compare to Colloms' measurements of the Q1s:

http://www.absolutesounds.com/pdf/main/press/HIFiCriticJul-SepQ1forweb.pdf
No, didn't measure the Q1. All measurements were done in construction phase, before painting. Didn't want to risk damaging the speakers and bring them in the room...

Amaizing looking room ! My dedicated room looks really pedestrian next to yours :)

A quick Q - how did you get rid of that big suckout on FR ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Helmholz resonators can only help you getting rid of peaks, not suckouts.
If there is a suck out, that means there is a room mode which is causing that... so yes, Helmholtz resonators can treat that. This suckout is the first thing we worked on.

Great room Stereo.
The 4 sqm is the one that deals with the 43 Hz null?
Behind my listening position I have diffusers and then I have a 3.5 meter long, 50cm deep corridor with an "entrance" tuned to a specific frequency. I don't remember if we used it to tame the 20Hz or 43Hz resonance.
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#24
Stereo, that's one amazing looking room! How did you select the company/ designer? What were your design goals?
Yes, choice of the acoustic company was a long process. I always take a lot of time before choosing equipment: listen a lot, have a look at the design philosophy. I have to be pleased both rationally and emotionally. It was the same for the speakers: I flied all over the world to hear more than 150 speakers in good condition before choosing Magico. The room and Magico speakers are the only things set for the long term, all upstream components can change quite a lot.

On the room itself, I originally was thinking about Rives (as the most well known name), but a few elements of their room philosophy didn't 100% convinced me, so I investigated further. I decided to go deeper into learning acoustic and spent also significant time reading specialized forums for more experience from others. SMT, a Swedish acoustic company, captured my attention for several reasons:
■ I heard of at least 4 cases of Rives rooms in US which were destroyed and rebuilt by SMT
■ Their acoustic philosophy made sense to me
■ A few audio industry insiders that I trust did tell me that the best room they have ever heard was built by SMT
Of course, choosing a Swedish company with little Asian experience to build a level 3 room in Taiwan sounded like a difficult project. But my interest was excited enough for me to investigate further. So I got on a plane, and flied to Stockholm to meet with Matts Odemalm, SMT owner, and to listen to some of the rooms he built in Sweden. I was convinced by what I heard, and what he told me on his design philosophy , so I decided to go with him.

Small room acoustic is trying to address different phenomenon based on frequencies:
Below around 200Hz, we are in the domain of wave acoustic: sound is omnidirectional, room acoustic is dominated by room mode and resonances at very specific frequencies. To address these resonances, I have used a set of 31 Helmholtz resonators of different sizes, with the objective to get a linear frequency response in the bass and a regular, short decay. The advantage of Helmholtz resonators is that they are very efficient at absorbing a specific frequency and they can get much lower than fiberglass (provided you don't want to use a few meter deep of fiberglass). Additionally, the Q factor (sharpness of the resonance peak of a Helmholtz resonator can be adjusted by adding absorption material in the resonator. In my case, I use a combination of 24 SMT V4 resonator, 3 custom made V6, one 4m3 resonator in a corridor (with a controlled opening) behind my listening position, and 3 large resonators in the ceiling (one of them being large band). See the effect on the decay. This pic is before tuning of the resonators, check my original post for decay after treatment:
waterfall fisrt measurment.jpg

Above the transition frequency, we are in the domain of “geometric acoustics”. Here my acoustic treatment is mainly diffusion. All walls and ceiling are treated with 67 diffusers: S-Wings (ceiling), V-wings, flower wings and scattering pillars (walls), transparent wings (front). Basically, 70% of walls and ceiling surface is covered by diffusers. SMT’s new family of wings diffusers are unique in performance – they are the main reason why I chose SMT as project lead for my room. Unlike classical diffusers which require 2-3meter distance to be effective, they work extremely well even when at a distance of only 50cm. In my room, I am sitting 60cm from backwall. Additionally, when used to treat full walls, the small space between the modules also works as a Helmholtz resonator in the 125-250Hz frequency band. Diffusers have low absorption coefficient, around 0.15-0.25, keeping the room lively.
The objective of this extensive treatment with diffusers is to breakup reflections, and to spread out the broadband energy in time. Reflections are delayed by at least 6msec (which is the minimum required ot avoid coloration). Listener experiences a “lawn of reflections”. Leveraging precedence effect, this spreading of energy over time gives to the brain enough time to overcome the masking effect of strong transient: it is like if our brain has an "time integration window", the multiple reflections from diffusers are heard as a single signal with the direct sound. The tones are richer and the listening room acoustic disappears to let the listener hear all subtleties of the recording acoustic.
The periphery of ceiling is treated with variable level of absorption, with the objective to get a constant decay time of 0.35-0.39sec across frequencies
 
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stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#25
I have taken a better picture of the acrylic diffuser. Sound enters from one side and exit on the opposite side, diffused, with a 6msec delay
DSC_4265.JPG

And have now added an absorbent / diffusive rug as well as spiked the speakers. Sounds has improved 2 notches.
DSC_4264.JPG
 

Elberoth

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Dec 16, 2012
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#26
How deep are the difusers you put on the side walls ? I'm asking, since I would like to know how much of the room width was 'sacrificed' after installing them.
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#27
How deep are the diffusers you put on the side walls ? I'm asking, since I would like to know how much of the room width was 'sacrificed' after installing them.
between the construction of box in box and the diffusers I lost 1.2meters width.... in particular because the Helmholtz resonators are 45cm deep. You lose quite a bit of width, but you can put speakers 30cm from the wall without any negative impact....
See attached the dimensions of diffusers:
SMT diffusers.jpg
 

Elberoth

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Dec 16, 2012
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#28
What software did you use to take the measurements ?

I have the full $1100 Rives Audio Pro test kit (mic, amp, cables and test CDs) but I have to admit, I never got around to use it. Your thread revived my interest in taking a full set of measurements.
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#29
What software did you use to take the measurements ?

I have the full $1100 Rives Audio Pro test kit (mic, amp, cables and test CDs) but I have to admit, I never got around to use it. Your thread revived my interest in taking a full set of measurements.
ARTA. I was also using ETF in the past. There are a lot of good SW....
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Sydney
#30
Wow, the room is unbelievable. I want one:D

Can't imagine how much that would cost but I anticipate worth every penny.
 
Aug 26, 2012
1,380
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#31
Job well done , kudos . Enjoy it in good health !
 
May 30, 2010
15,090
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Portugal
#32
Stereo,

Being able to see the before and after measurements was great. Do you know why did SMT choose to have a lower than average value of RT30 in the 100-200 zone?

BTW, there is plenty of nice information about SMT work in the Swedish forum euphonia-audioforum.se. For a start you can try this link and pick some images:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22smt%22+site:euphonia-audioforum.se&hl=en&lr=&safe=images&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=knMGUZP3J4ezhAeLnYDwDQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1440&bih=670
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#33
Stereo,

Being able to see the before and after measurements was great. Do you know why did SMT choose to have a lower than average value of RT30 in the 100-200 zone?
I don't believe that the 100-200value on the RT30 graph is significant, for 2 reasons:
1) this is below the transition frequency. That means sound behave like waves, and focus is on eliminating the room modes. Analyzing decay chart is the best way to make sure you achieve target. It shows that decay time is around 0.3sec (vs 0.6sec before). For frequencies above 200Hz, we used amount of absorption material at the periphery of ceiling (the darker gray area with the lights) to decrease RT30 from 0.45 to around 0.37sec
2) RT30 chart has been made with 3 very cheap logitech speakers playing at same time, to excite as much as possible the room. Their frequency response below 150Hz is probably not linear....
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 16, 2012
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#35
Do you have any images how the room was decoupled from the house structure ?

I also built a room-inside-the-room to sound proof my dedicated listening room, so I'm very much interested in the techniques you have used.

In my case, we have build double walls:

DLR_14.jpg
(left to right: 3 layers of extra dense sheetrock glued together - this is the inside wall, decoupling foam, aluminum wall structure, bitumen resilencing mat, 1 inch spacing, aluminum wall structure, decoupling foam, 2 layers of regular sheetrock glued together as outer wall)

lowered the ceiling:

DLR_15.jpg

DLR_19.jpg

and put a specjal resilencing foam (blue) put a next 2 inch layer of concrete on the floor:

DLR_24.jpg

In my room, the upper concrete layer is decoupled by using special resilencing foam mats, wall structure has a special foam where it touches the concrete floor / ceiling and sheetrock wall (Fermacell) and also bitumen mats (between the outer and inner wall).

Here is the room plan:

DLR_9.jpg

And here are some images of a finished room:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1134921003
 

stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#37
Elberoth,
floor and walls are disconnected from the "outside box" with BSW Regufoam vibration insulation pads. Different pad density for floor and walls. Ceiling is suspended using hangers with the same BSW insulation pads. Natural frequency is around 10-14Hz, ensuring a very good sound insulation down to 20Hz. See pictures
building phase box in box small.jpg isolation pads small.jpg

this is the principles used for ceiling:
structure of ceiling.jpg

And the floor is multiple layers of HDF and a metal plate (total weight 70kg/m2) placed on BSW isolators every 40cm, with 5cm insulation between the isolators:
floor.jpg
 
#38
Yes, choice of the acoustic company was a long process. I always take a lot of time before choosing equipment: listen a lot, have a look at the design philosophy. I have to be pleased both rationally and emotionally. It was the same for the speakers: I flied all over the world to hear more than 150 speakers in good condition before choosing Magico. The room and Magico speakers are the only things set for the long term, all upstream components can change quite a lot.
Hi! WS , Could you list a few speakers you listened to ? Was Vivid Audio Giya ever on your final list?

thanks!!

Guy;-)
 
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stereo

New Member
Sep 1, 2012
407
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#39
Hi! WS , Could you list a few speakers you listened to ? Was Vivid Audio Giya ever on your final list?

thanks!!

Guy;-)
I am not WS (WS Lam?) and difficult to do a list, so many.....I have of course listened to most of the "usual suspects": all Magico (from S1 to Ultimate), all Wilson (except Alexia), Rockport Aquila, Altair and Avior, Tidal Agoria, Contriva and Sunray, most Avantgarde, all TAD, Evolution acoustic MM3 (owned them before Q1), MM2, all 3 Giya, several Raidho, several Estelon, most Magnepan, your Revel Salon 2, most Usher, all MBL, Vandersteen model 7, most top of the range of Sous Faber, Isophon RC11, Voxativ Ampeggio, several Kharma and Marten, all large Focal Utopia, Aerial 7T, several Volent, KEF Blade, all YG, Lansche 7, quite a bit of horn speakers you find only in Japan and many many more....

Yes, the Giya are very good, probably in my top 4 brands in term of sound quality. Very good drivers (fast, light), nice sound. 4 reasons why they didn't make the cut: 1) Ugly- don't know, but the design is just not for me, 2) ported bass. When you get used to the "correctness" of a closed bass, all ported bass sound bloated and slow (to stop). 3) reputation of fragile drivers - and I don't want to deal with the mess of doing after sales from South Africa, 4) knock on the cabinet, or try to push with ONE finger on the cabinet laterally - don't push with 2 fingers or the speakers may fall over.... I exaggerate but you get where I want to go ;-)
 
#40
I am not WS (WS Lam?) and difficult to do a list, so many.....I have of course listened to most of the "usual suspects": all Magico (from S1 to Ultimate), all Wilson (except Alexia), Rockport Aquila, Altair and Avior, Tidal Agoria, Contriva and Sunray, most Avantgarde, all TAD, Evolution acoustic MM3 (owned them before Q1), MM2, all 3 Giya, several Raidho, several Estelon, most Magnepan, your Revel Salon 2, most Usher, all MBL, Vandersteen model 7, most top of the range of Sous Faber, Isophon RC11, Voxativ Ampeggio, several Kharma and Marten, all large Focal Utopia, Aerial 7T, several Volent, KEF Blade, all YG, Lansche 7, quite a bit of horn speakers you find only in Japan and many many more....

Yes, the Giya are very good, probably in my top 4 brands in term of sound quality. Very good drivers (fast, light), nice sound. 4 reasons why they didn't make the cut: 1) Ugly- don't know, but the design is just not for me, 2) ported bass. When you get used to the "correctness" of a closed bass, all ported bass sound bloated and slow (to stop). 3) reputation of fragile drivers - and I don't want to deal with the mess of doing after sales from South Africa, 4) knock on the cabinet, or try to push with ONE finger on the cabinet laterally - don't push with 2 fingers or the speakers may fall over.... I exaggerate but you get where I want to go ;-)
thanks for the reply!! sorry for the confusion Sir, WS lam has Magico Q1 a Devialet...and dartzeel !! I like the fact that you did your homework in a rational way. are you talking about the built quality of the Giya or the unstable contact with the floor ?

Guy;-)
 
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