New think piece from Roy Gregory- Thoughts?

[Elliot G.]

The Quality Conundrum… - Gy8

The toxic relationship between price, discount and perceived value.

gy8.eu

 

[Al M.]

Thanks for the article.

Roy Gregory lists in his piece as one of the two big mistakes:

Assuming that because something costs more (or has/had a higher published price) it must be better.

Yes, I don't think like that. Within my budget I have never bought on price, but on performance. I don't care about prestige either.

My $ 2,200 DAC feeds a $ 15K preamp (for components, see my signature below). Stupidity? Insanity? No, it's sonic logic. I have heard my DAC against ones of multiples the price and cannot justify for myself the higher price for those DACs *). But then, I also made sure that it performs under conditions than are better than those under which most have heard it -- high performance (and expensive) power cord and digital cables, reclocker upstream of DAC.

On the other hand, was my preamp too expensive? I doubt it. I have compared with cheaper options in my system, and conversely I have heard it elsewhere favorably compete with more expensive preamps. I was looking for the performance, and then I paid the price that came with it.

My silver ribbon speaker cables (at about $ 7K) cost about a third of my speakers. Too expensive in relative terms? No, the speakers and the rest of the chain demand the precision performance of the speaker cable (which I have compared with cheaper copper alternatives) and justify its quality and price.

Conversely, are my speakers too cheap for my system? No, I had heard them prior to purchase and they performed exactly to my wishes, also compared to what I have heard from much more expensive speakers.

Give me the performance first, and then it justifies the price, either relatively high or astonishingly low.

I have spent a decent amount of money on acoustic treatments (mostly ASC). In my room, they were necessary to make the system and its components shine. Without the, in relative terms still moderate, expense of the acoustic treatments the system and its components would perform at a much lower level in my room, a level that simply would not justify the overall price.

All in all, I think I have built a system, with both relatively cheap and relatively expensive components, that on the whole has a very satisfying performance/price ratio, at least to my preferences and tastes.

____________________________________________

*) My DAC is also factory direct and produced in relatively high numbers, which allows the manufacturer to buy its components at bulk prices. Without these two factors, the DAC would have to be far more expensive than it is (about 6 grand, as the designer himself explained).

The shake-up of pricing structure by components without dealer distribution and (relative) mass production is an issue that is also touched upon in Roy Gregory's article.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yes, I don't think like that. Within my budget I have never bought on price, but on performance. I don't care about prestige either. (...)

Al. M,
Do you know of any audiophile in WBF who does not claim the same?

IMO such articles on discount and cost always forget the most important aspect for general buyers in high-end - the quality of the service and advise buyers can get from their dealers. Surely the active participants with experience in this forum and knowledgeable audiophiles can create their systems buying directly and saving money, but IMO we are exceptions.

Surely top service comes at a price but the high-end success relies on good and knowledgeable dealers, not dramatic articles.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'd rather see Roy stick to telling us how stuff sounds. and how stuff compares. i'm a fan.

buuaaaat......in general industry members are not who to look to for price/value/market perspective lessons. they have their views, but we should add a very large grain of salt. i'm not saying that these lessons have zero value. maybe data points to file away.

 

[rob]

Roy Gregory is a good writer, no doubt.


The industry is changing , as audiophile equipment is probably selling in much smaller numbers manufactures are faced with the dilemma of charging massive prices for perceived statement pieces to maintain their profits, or make more affordable lines(which they probably can't compete with mass producers margins) that may also effect the brands prestige or status.

Article sort of reads as a disguised promotional piece for Wadax, CH, Stenheim and Gobel. ?
I could be wrong about this as i feel the industry has become a bit ridiculous over the last decade.

While also suggesting established brands Wilson, Dag, DCS AR may not be at the cutting edge and offer good value for money anymore? Not sure why he includes Constellation (did they ever sell similar volumes?)

Interesting take on the state of the industry non the less.

 

[Lee]

Roy Gregory is a good writer, no doubt.


The industry is changing , as audiophile equipment is probably selling in much smaller numbers manufactures are faced with the dilemma of charging massive prices for perceived statement pieces to maintain their profits, or make more affordable lines(which they probably can't compete with mass producers margins) that may also effect the brands prestige or status.

Article sort of reads as a disguised promotional piece for Wadax, CH, Stenheim and Gobel. ?
I could be wrong about this as i feel the industry has become a bit ridiculous over the last decade.

While also suggesting established brands Wilson, Dag, DCS AR may not be at the cutting edge and offer good value for money anymore? Not sure why he includes Constellation (did they ever sell similar volumes?)

Interesting take on the state of the industry non the less.

There’s that assumption again that the industry is crashing. But I have heard from three prominent manufacturers that their production team is struggling to meet demand.

 

[AndrewChen]

Glorified Ad copy. The article offers virtually no value to any average audiophile, and only attempts to glorify his (or perhaps his wife’s) favoured brands.

 

[Al M.]

Al. M,
Do you know of any audiophile in WBF who does not claim the same?

Lots of audiophiles seem to care about the prestige of well-known, major brand names.

That does sometimes seem to have an effect on how much money they spend.

Few of the brands that I own are well-known or have a particular prestige. I do think I got great performance for the money.

 

[Synaxis]

Few of the brands that I own are well-known or have a particular prestige. I do think I got great performance for the money.

This is a great point.

I usually specifically search out the non-"prestigious" brands.

My *personal* opinion based off real-world listening is you *often* end up paying way too much for their names, and less for absolute performance.

I enjoy the search to find the boutique brands who are super-passionate about music and sell fantastic gear at a more realistic price.

Having said that, to assume all larger brands operate the same way or to group them all as being the same is not correct either.

 

[Al M.]

My *personal* opinion based off real-world listening is you *often* end up paying way too much for their names, and less for absolute performance.

That is my thinking based on real-world listening as well.

Having said that, to assume all larger brands operate the same way or to group them all as being the same is not correct either.

Also agreed on this point.

 

[JiminGa]

The Quality Conundrum… - Gy8

The toxic relationship between price, discount and perceived value.

gy8.eu

A lot to chew on there. I'm old enough to think of D'Agostino as a new company which I never much cared for (yes I've owned one). Wilson has a sound and an approach that is not for everyone but I (and I think most people) believe they are making better products now than ever. DCS makes fantastic digital (which again has not been for everyone). I will hear the Varese in a month or two and then render an opinion on their trajectory. ARC has had its ups and downs. I categorically dislike CH Precision so maybe Roy and I just hear differently. Magico? Again polarizing. Wadax I will hear soon so I can't comment. The thing these two groups he cites really have in common is that the first tend to "run together" via certain dealers/distributers (he should have thrown in Transparent too) and the second group a different distribution. It's almost like Roy is putting his finger on the scale. Who cares if as he says "reviewers" universally praise these new products? Is that good or bad? If there isn't something new and exciting what is there to read about. I hope the Wadax Studio is a paradigm shift. That way I can stop throwing so much money at digital and concentrate on analog. I hope to hear it with P.S. and clock in Munich. I'd buy it on the spot. Also, no one should feel they are "screwing" a dealer by asking for a 10% discount. Different products have different margins. Cables and speakers tend to have a bit more than electronics but not universally and you have to do some research. Just like you would if you were buying a car. I do agree with a lot he wrote I just find some of it - curious.

 

[hopkins]

It's easy to discount prices to a certain extent, but what about "dirt cheap" components?

I just ordered this CD player (after watching JELabs' latest video - thinking that if he's using it it can't be so bad ...):

SMSL PL100 CD Player CS43131 Black

The SMSL PL100 CD player is the perfect way to enjoy your CD collection. It's essentially based on a CS43131 DAC chip and a PLL (Phase-locked Loop) circuit for sound reproduction as close as possible to the original source.

www.audiophonics.fr

Is it going to "suck"? I don't think so, but I'll report back.

Used as a transport, hooked up to my DAC/Amp with an optical cable, it may be just fine. Would a 10.000$ or more CDP sound better? Probably. The temptation to buy something more expensive is always there...and this is WBF...

I will be using it occasionally, not as my main source.

It does not cost much to try.

 

[Lee]

It is an interesting thought piece but I have two constructive criticisms:

1. Roy seems to imply that very high prices are pure luxury pricing but does not talk to the emergence of the ultra luxury segment in hifi driven by the creation of more centi-millionaires and billionaires. Some audio companies are building cost no object flagships to specifically address that market and it’s helping everyone (better finances at mfr, better down market products).

2. Roy also suggests that certain establishment brands are not innovating. This seems very off to me given the incredible accomplishment of the dCS Varese. Wilson’s XVX also has many innovations (drivers, caps, nomograph precision) that push it ahead of the WAMM in many areas.

 

[Lee]

This is a great point.

I usually specifically search out the non-"prestigious" brands.

My *personal* opinion based off real-world listening is you *often* end up paying way too much for their names, and less for absolute performance.

I enjoy the search to find the boutique brands who are super-passionate about music and sell fantastic gear at a more realistic price.

Having said that, to assume all larger brands operate the same way or to group them all as being the same is not correct either.

I think this is true in many cases but in some cases you are getting what you pay for. For example if you visit the factories of Wilson and Magico, you definitely see why they are as expensive as they are.

I think it’s a bit like buying a Rolex watch. They are hyped and expensive but still a fundamentally well built watch that will easily last half a century or more. Of course the analogy breaks down as people can see your watch but not your Magico M6s.

There are real downsides to boutique brands however. Lower resale value, lack of dealer support, and financial instability have to be strongly considered.

 

[Synaxis]

Is it going to "suck"? I don't think so, but I'll report back.

Used as a transport, hooked up to my DAC/Amp with an optical cable, it may be just fine. Would a 10.000$ or more CDP sound better? Probably. The temptation to buy something more expensive is always there...and this is WBF...

I will be using it occasionally, not as my main source.

It does not cost much to try.

I think trying gear like you doing are is great and a lot of fun.

Please be sure to keep us updated on what your thoughts are on it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

nomograph precision

Can you explain further Lee ....?

 

[Kingsrule]

There’s that assumption again that the industry is crashing. But I have heard from three prominent manufacturers that their production team is struggling to meet demand.

An misleading statement
Did they shortsightedly reduce the number of staff?
Did some staff leave for various reasons?
Can they not hire the appropriate number of staff needed?

etc,etc,etc

 

[andromedaaudio]

There are real downsides to boutique brands however. Lower resale value, lack of dealer support, and financial instability have to be strongly considered.

Lee , how do you come up with that assumption .
This is all just speculation on your part.

With your kind of reasoning all is left in audio are a couple of big distributors / Brands

 

[gleeds]

I think this is true in many cases but in some cases you are getting what you pay for. For example if you visit the factories of Wilson and Magico, you definitely see why they are as expensive as they are.

I think it’s a bit like buying a Rolex watch. They are hyped and expensive but still a fundamentally well built watch that will easily last half a century or more. Of course the analogy breaks down as people can see your watch but not your Magico M6s.

There are real downsides to boutique brands however. Lower resale value, lack of dealer support, and financial instability have to be strongly considered.

Lee,

Self-interest aside, I'm bored with the big brands that own so much space. What fun would this hobby be if only carriage trade brands like Magico, Wilson, and dCS existed? Who would challenge them to get better?

As remarkable in some ways as those firms are, I would characterize them as iterators, not innovators. The real innovators are to be found in the 2nd and 3rd-tier brands, making forums like WBF a must for the continued vitality of the high-end. I suspect the majority of members agree.

I'm a hardcore watch enthusiast. My Dad gave me a Rolex Oyster on my 21st birthday, and my son still wears it. The crown and stem recently broke, and guess what Rolex told him - sorry, we no longer have parts for watches built before 1980!

 

[microstrip]

Glorified Ad copy. The article offers virtually no value to any average audiophile, and only attempts to glorify his (or perhaps his wife’s) favoured brands.

Unfortunately it is too evident. Surely there are interesting trends in the highend involving excellent brands, many coming from Europe, and a good article on this movement would be interesting. But this one is simply a poor marketing exercise with a double reference to well known brands to leverage his glorification of the products he is promoting.