I am currently in the process of fine tuning my room which is 10wx25Lx10H. I have GIK bass traps in all 4 corners and GIK absorption panels at first reflection. I have also treated the room with Synergistic research HFT's and a FEQ. I have noticed that on certain recordings, the high end is a little bright. My dealer has also noted that the room was a little "hot". I was thinking of adding clouds to help with this. The sound is otherwise awesome. My floor is wood with a large rug covering 85% of the area. So now the problem. The likely area of first reflection is occupied by a fan. I am making two 4X6 ft clouds using Owen Corning 703 fiber panels. Will they be helpful if placed just in front of the fan and just behind the first reflection point? This will place one in the front third above the amps, and one over the listening position in the back third. Or is this just wishful thinking and a waste of time?
off axis cloud placement
- Thread starter orthomead
- Start date
I am not an expert, as others, on this Forum but I have gone through the same process as you. First I was told to measure the room myself with REW. Was told it‘s easy. I couldn’t make it. So I took home a company (HOFA). They measured my room.. HOFA came twice. First to measure for the qoute. Then to verify after installation. As always it’s a combination of bas traps, absorbers and diffusers. I am pleased with the result. Have you measured your room?
You speak of that certain recordings are “bright”. Is it not just the recordings which are bright? Room a little “hot”. Hot for me means lack of high fréquences. More of lower fréquences. Correct? If so I don’t think absorbers will help. But no expert.
Your set up is what? Electronics and loudspeakers? I could not find it.
If possible I think it would be good with some pictures. Will help the true experts.
Room treatment is really important. I will follow this thread.
Gunnar
You speak of that certain recordings are “bright”. Is it not just the recordings which are bright? Room a little “hot”. Hot for me means lack of high fréquences. More of lower fréquences. Correct? If so I don’t think absorbers will help. But no expert.
Your set up is what? Electronics and loudspeakers? I could not find it.
If possible I think it would be good with some pictures. Will help the true experts.
Room treatment is really important. I will follow this thread.
Gunnar
@orthomead I have some experience with ceiling treatments, however, a major/important difference between our rooms is ceiling height. Mine is about 7.5 feet. I wish it was taller.
Important info:
---I have NOT measured my room, aside from my ears and those of a few sharp-eared hifi pals.
---My room is well treated with manufactured (GIK, Primacoutic) and DIY panels and traps.
I built a cloud out of 2" 705 panels, trimmed in aluminum angle stck (L shape). Three 2'x4' panels connected on the long-sides. So, essentially, at first reflection, across much of the ceiling between the speakers. And a forth panel midway, making a kind of "T" cloud.
IMO it worked very well and did not create a dull, over-damped sound.
After about a year, I thought more about the floor, which has a wool/silk area rug, about 4'x8' also in front of and "between" the speakers at first reflection. The underlay pad is good quality and substantial. However, I wondered if I might do better, so I looked for a thick vinyl pad and added it beneath the carpet, in addition to the pad.
I thought it positively changed the sound a bit. So, I wondered if this would allow me to remove the cloud.
In my space, the cloud with a two-inch gap and a two-inch panel, is a substantial visual element.
Removing the cloud was fine. Maybe no net-gain, but no degradation. However (isn't there always a however?), I do think it helps to have good diffusion in a space, so I added two "skyline" diffusors (2x2) at first reflection. I think this is very nice now. I used the compressed styrofoam product from Vicoustic.
Would an even denser material be better? Sure, but ceilings have considerations for weight, mounting, etc.
So, I would ask: Have you considered diffusion at first reflection?
I recognize there are multiple thoughts on this, but I like the diffusion and it helps to keep things lively.
Also, your fan is likely causing some amount of diffusion too. Sorry I don't have better pic of the assembly. This is from the side.
Important info:
---I have NOT measured my room, aside from my ears and those of a few sharp-eared hifi pals.
---My room is well treated with manufactured (GIK, Primacoutic) and DIY panels and traps.
I built a cloud out of 2" 705 panels, trimmed in aluminum angle stck (L shape). Three 2'x4' panels connected on the long-sides. So, essentially, at first reflection, across much of the ceiling between the speakers. And a forth panel midway, making a kind of "T" cloud.
IMO it worked very well and did not create a dull, over-damped sound.
After about a year, I thought more about the floor, which has a wool/silk area rug, about 4'x8' also in front of and "between" the speakers at first reflection. The underlay pad is good quality and substantial. However, I wondered if I might do better, so I looked for a thick vinyl pad and added it beneath the carpet, in addition to the pad.
I thought it positively changed the sound a bit. So, I wondered if this would allow me to remove the cloud.
In my space, the cloud with a two-inch gap and a two-inch panel, is a substantial visual element.
Removing the cloud was fine. Maybe no net-gain, but no degradation. However (isn't there always a however?), I do think it helps to have good diffusion in a space, so I added two "skyline" diffusors (2x2) at first reflection. I think this is very nice now. I used the compressed styrofoam product from Vicoustic.
Would an even denser material be better? Sure, but ceilings have considerations for weight, mounting, etc.
So, I would ask: Have you considered diffusion at first reflection?
I recognize there are multiple thoughts on this, but I like the diffusion and it helps to keep things lively.
Also, your fan is likely causing some amount of diffusion too. Sorry I don't have better pic of the assembly. This is from the side.
Attachments
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D29515F0-882D-4C52-B09E-3F2870762EA9.jpeg
Hey Gunnar, Thanks for your reply. I forgot to mention that I have Quadratic diffusers on the front wall. I have VAC signature 200IQ monos with KT150s. My Pre is a VAC Master and speakers are Magico S7s. Mids and lows are awesome. On some recordings like Don Henley's "Boys of summer" the higher notes become a little uncomfortable. Not bad, but don't see it on other recordings. By measuring I'm assuming you mean with a microphone and a sound analysis program. No, I haven't. Think my ears matter most.
Markus-I have GIK absorbers with some diffusion on side walls. The HFT's also help with this. Other than the Quadratic diffusers on the front wall, I have not. Thanks for input
Markus-I have GIK absorbers with some diffusion on side walls. The HFT's also help with this. Other than the Quadratic diffusers on the front wall, I have not. Thanks for input
You have a beautiful system. Really Impressing. No doubt you have a great sound.
One thought I had could it be a vibration problem? But with what you have I am sure you have solved that issue if it was an issue.
I listened to “boys of summer” Qobuz Flac 96/24 and I must say I did not get through the track. The higher notes were as you said uncomfortable. Mine was a recording from 1984.
Measuring. HOFA started with measuring the room with a Norsonic Dodecahedron with a Norsonic Amplifier. Thereafter they hooked up their Microphone Klark Teknik 6051 to my preamplifier and sent out sound in different frequences from my loudspeakers. I don’t disagree with that the ear matters most but with the help of HOFA I gained time and knowledge and sound improvement.
I was after knowledge and a speaking partner. I new I had an issue with acoustic. Specifically in low frequencies. I was fairly sure what the solution was but not 100% sure so Instead of not doing exactly the right thing I took in an expert. Bass traps are tricky to get ”enough”. In total the guy from HOFA spent more than 6 hours in my place. I can tell you I learnt a lot. The delivery except from the quote was a nice written report explaining my acoustics.
My listening space is of your size and with an opening on the right side. (An L.) The loudspeakers are in the bottom right corner of the “L”. So it’s not a dedicated listen room but a big open space >80 m2 including living area, dining table and kitchen. Floor concrete slabs not wood as you have. Carpets yes.
I attach two files. One before room treatment and one after.
Could you please explain what you mean with “hot”.
Gunnar
One thought I had could it be a vibration problem? But with what you have I am sure you have solved that issue if it was an issue.
I listened to “boys of summer” Qobuz Flac 96/24 and I must say I did not get through the track. The higher notes were as you said uncomfortable. Mine was a recording from 1984.
Measuring. HOFA started with measuring the room with a Norsonic Dodecahedron with a Norsonic Amplifier. Thereafter they hooked up their Microphone Klark Teknik 6051 to my preamplifier and sent out sound in different frequences from my loudspeakers. I don’t disagree with that the ear matters most but with the help of HOFA I gained time and knowledge and sound improvement.
I was after knowledge and a speaking partner. I new I had an issue with acoustic. Specifically in low frequencies. I was fairly sure what the solution was but not 100% sure so Instead of not doing exactly the right thing I took in an expert. Bass traps are tricky to get ”enough”. In total the guy from HOFA spent more than 6 hours in my place. I can tell you I learnt a lot. The delivery except from the quote was a nice written report explaining my acoustics.
My listening space is of your size and with an opening on the right side. (An L.) The loudspeakers are in the bottom right corner of the “L”. So it’s not a dedicated listen room but a big open space >80 m2 including living area, dining table and kitchen. Floor concrete slabs not wood as you have. Carpets yes.
I attach two files. One before room treatment and one after.
Could you please explain what you mean with “hot”.
Gunnar
I did similar to Markus. I also used OC 705 set in a plywood frame around the outside. Some of them were 2' wide some 4'wide.
When I finished my room I found the angled ceiling above the speakers and behind my head funneled the reflections to my listening seat from over head. This was a big surprise, as electrostatic generally have a wave front that is forward and back not down and up.
The clouds cured that instantly.
All of the flat panels around the room are also 705 with my 50 Shades of Gray diffusers placed over them.
At least that is what one of my wife's tennis friends called them when she saw them.
When I finished my room I found the angled ceiling above the speakers and behind my head funneled the reflections to my listening seat from over head. This was a big surprise, as electrostatic generally have a wave front that is forward and back not down and up.
The clouds cured that instantly.
All of the flat panels around the room are also 705 with my 50 Shades of Gray diffusers placed over them.
At least that is what one of my wife's tennis friends called them when she saw them.
Attachments
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IMG_1486.JPG
Markus-I think the GIK art panels have an element of diffusion and absorption in them. I do have 2 49x7x19 inche Quadratic diffusers in the front that are currently sitting on the floor awaiting finishing. By the way, your listening space looks awesome. The current cloud is all diffusion now? From what I can see, it doesn't appear to be placed at a primary reflection point, or maybe that's just the photo.
Gunnar-very interesting that your listening experience with "the Boys" mirrors my own. Perhaps it's not a room issue at all, but rather a poorly recorded song. My source is first pressing vinyl, btw. My dealer's assistant commented that the room "was a little hot". I interpreted that as a little too lively and needed some room treatments, which I have subsequently done. I guess the question is whether additional treatments can continue to improve the sound.
Brad-another fantastic listening room! Looks like a cloud Mohawk!! My ceiling is flat with a low profile fan in the middle, so I can cover in front of the first reflection and behind, but not at the first reflection point itself. I suppose any absorption may tame those irritating highs. I don't have much else for absorption except for GIK art panels at first reflection on side walls and GIK bass traps in the rear corners and combined diffusion/Absorption bass traps in front corners. My room has some art work and signed Rock memorabilia on the walls that may contribute to some sonic mayhem and 5 guitars situated haphazardly in the room. I'm encouraged that you have succesful treatment over ceiling spaces that aren't primary reflection points.
Those with clouds-how heavy were they and how did you suspend them? Thanks
Gunnar-very interesting that your listening experience with "the Boys" mirrors my own. Perhaps it's not a room issue at all, but rather a poorly recorded song. My source is first pressing vinyl, btw. My dealer's assistant commented that the room "was a little hot". I interpreted that as a little too lively and needed some room treatments, which I have subsequently done. I guess the question is whether additional treatments can continue to improve the sound.
Brad-another fantastic listening room! Looks like a cloud Mohawk!! My ceiling is flat with a low profile fan in the middle, so I can cover in front of the first reflection and behind, but not at the first reflection point itself. I suppose any absorption may tame those irritating highs. I don't have much else for absorption except for GIK art panels at first reflection on side walls and GIK bass traps in the rear corners and combined diffusion/Absorption bass traps in front corners. My room has some art work and signed Rock memorabilia on the walls that may contribute to some sonic mayhem and 5 guitars situated haphazardly in the room. I'm encouraged that you have succesful treatment over ceiling spaces that aren't primary reflection points.
Those with clouds-how heavy were they and how did you suspend them? Thanks
I used a short piece of chain. I screwed one end to the plywood outside frame and put screw in hooks into the ceiling.
It was easy to hook one chain at a time by my self. They are probably 2 " from the ceiling.
I was able to screw into the framing that I used to create the ceiling shape. I think most any drywall anchor would work fine.
A 4' x 4' panel probably weighs 15 lbs. max so that is only 3.5 lbs per anchor.
It was easy to hook one chain at a time by my self. They are probably 2 " from the ceiling.
I was able to screw into the framing that I used to create the ceiling shape. I think most any drywall anchor would work fine.
A 4' x 4' panel probably weighs 15 lbs. max so that is only 3.5 lbs per anchor.
...guitar diffusors! Excellent. Enjoyed seeing the pics. Very nice guys!
I removed the cloud and now have only two 2x2 skylines on the ceiling. You can see them a bit in the pic here. At first reflection.
My room has about 25 or so traps/devices. I built the two quads behind the chair from Acoustic Fields plans. The massive trap on the floor behind the chair too. About 165 lbs.
Yes, the GIK "art" diffusors are 3D models: some adsorption, and diffusion in two planes.
I actually built this room. Stone. Floors. The whole shebang. Walls are constrained layer drywall over homosote, a product that was in favor long ago. The walls hang on Z-clips/grid, suspending walls from studs.
I should figure out how to measure it some day, because I *think* it sounds good. I am likely a bit biased, but from where it started? OMG.
Respectfully, I think it is a good example of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A room not well suited to audio, that can be made to be pretty good. It would be a joy to have a good room for audio, but this was what I had, so I tried to figure out best options. I think some folks may avoid the room, but it's worth it to treat, IMO. Even if you don't go crazy with hanging stuff everywhere. BTW: pic of the vinyl under the carpet.
I removed the cloud and now have only two 2x2 skylines on the ceiling. You can see them a bit in the pic here. At first reflection.
My room has about 25 or so traps/devices. I built the two quads behind the chair from Acoustic Fields plans. The massive trap on the floor behind the chair too. About 165 lbs.
Yes, the GIK "art" diffusors are 3D models: some adsorption, and diffusion in two planes.
I actually built this room. Stone. Floors. The whole shebang. Walls are constrained layer drywall over homosote, a product that was in favor long ago. The walls hang on Z-clips/grid, suspending walls from studs.
I should figure out how to measure it some day, because I *think* it sounds good. I am likely a bit biased, but from where it started? OMG.
Respectfully, I think it is a good example of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A room not well suited to audio, that can be made to be pretty good. It would be a joy to have a good room for audio, but this was what I had, so I tried to figure out best options. I think some folks may avoid the room, but it's worth it to treat, IMO. Even if you don't go crazy with hanging stuff everywhere. BTW: pic of the vinyl under the carpet.
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So yours ”The Boys” is a really good vinyl recording. I couldn’t listen to the end. Very uncomfortable. Must be the recording.
I was not sure what “Hot” meant. So searched on Internet. Seems not to be the same as I first thought “Warm”. I found audio translations of “Hot” as too loud or in analogue the word distorting was mentioned. But I am not native in English so …… And have no idea of what your dealer meant.
Five years ago when I made a major upgrade and the home demo of new loudspeakers I initially had distorting noise . And a lot. Was the mirror hanging in the prolongation of the left loudspeaker which reflected the sound back to loudspeaker. Took the mirror away and the loudspeakers sounded as expected. Took me a few hours before I figured out that the mirror caused it.
I attach two pictures of my room. As earlier said a family room. You can see my room treatments. Not a dedicated room as you have.. A compromise even if my wife has compromised more than myself. Fortunately we are just two living in the house and we have a separate TV room.
Acoustic treatments are tricky. Should not be underestimated. During the installation of the treatments the guy from HOFA said that I should by myself decide how I wanted to have the diffuser (on the left side). There are four different identical modules (50*50 cm) which can be turned around. Took me a few years before I gave it a chance (Covid restrictions). I got surprised that it was possible to hear difference in sound depending on how they were positioned.
Gunnar
I was not sure what “Hot” meant. So searched on Internet. Seems not to be the same as I first thought “Warm”. I found audio translations of “Hot” as too loud or in analogue the word distorting was mentioned. But I am not native in English so …… And have no idea of what your dealer meant.
Five years ago when I made a major upgrade and the home demo of new loudspeakers I initially had distorting noise . And a lot. Was the mirror hanging in the prolongation of the left loudspeaker which reflected the sound back to loudspeaker. Took the mirror away and the loudspeakers sounded as expected. Took me a few hours before I figured out that the mirror caused it.
I attach two pictures of my room. As earlier said a family room. You can see my room treatments. Not a dedicated room as you have.. A compromise even if my wife has compromised more than myself. Fortunately we are just two living in the house and we have a separate TV room.
Acoustic treatments are tricky. Should not be underestimated. During the installation of the treatments the guy from HOFA said that I should by myself decide how I wanted to have the diffuser (on the left side). There are four different identical modules (50*50 cm) which can be turned around. Took me a few years before I gave it a chance (Covid restrictions). I got surprised that it was possible to hear difference in sound depending on how they were positioned.
Gunnar
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