On the subject of tweaks!

ddk

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Moved from another thread!

Dave, I would truly like to know how far do you take yr philosophy.

I'm assuming at a very minimum, we need a good room. If one doesn't have that, do you approve of acoustic panels? Or do you say make do w that room, or find a better room?

Dedicated lines ok? Radial main? If so, does one go pricey Oyaides lines eg, or bog standard stuff you'd find in a commercial electrical outlet?

Furutech sockets? Or again industrial/commercial bog standard?

Why go Ching Cheng pwr cords? Can find pwr cords under $5 off Amazon.

Fine to just stack amps, dacs, servers, phonos staight on the floor or a simple Ikea bookshelf?

Fuses? Stick w stock? All specialist fuses a racket?

Etc etc.

How far is the de-tweaking gonna go to be consistent w yr worldview?

Generally speaking Marc when there's an industrial version I'll go for it and when industrial isn't available and something is touted as a fundamental then I research it. Unfortunately that's also when we run into audio snake oil. There are varying qualities among industrial products too, so some research and experimentation is necessary. Dedicated lines, panels extra are basics and when done right will help with sound, mostly with lowering of line noise. Please note that this is different from audio products I object to that mask the line noise with the introduction of a stronger noise or coloration and they call it filtering, cat litter boxes among them. Do you know how many failed electronics go back every year because of the so call audiophile fuses because they fail?

Other things you mention like room tuning of course can help when applied correctly but hinder when done randomly. Plenty of crap quality products in this category that need to be avoided, hence my wall tampon comments.

I don't like Ikea products for foundation purposes and a good foundation is definitely not a tweak. IMO it shouldn't impart any character to the sound either which many do and plenty of them have a degrading effect on sound as mentioned in various posts above. Ching Cheng is a do nothing product, doesn't add or detract from the sound and it doesn't have any negative qualities so if your equipment is up to it you'll hear the differences of each recording and even differences in pressings of the same recording, none of the high priced audiophile power cords I've tested are neutral and in fact are the opposite, they introduce a strong character to the overall sound because they're designed to do something. Ching Cheng is something I came across looking for a do nothing cord I'm sure there are others you just have to do your own research because some of these industrial cords are nasty and harsh. De-tweaking involves removing all the products I mentioned from the system and starting with a basic setup and building up on that to bring the maximum potential of good equipment. Where experience matters is the knowledge of knowing what each component, tweak or materials are doing and what do with it or it's place. A lot of it is common sense! The people I work with know that they're not pushed into anything and everything I do is easily reversible, like peeling an onion I take them on a step by step journey so they understand the process and then can continue on their own where I leave off, including the mythical VTA settings. 30 odd years of experience is compressed down to the essentials and delivered on a plate and once the logic of a subject is understood one can easily deal with the variables as part of a process; this is the crux of it. No one is beyond mistakes but with the process in place the mistakes can be reversed. Rely on common sense and science than stories, as in the case of panzerholz that started all this. I'm not taking pot shots at Emile just disagree with what him in this matter, many of us including him know that panzerholz has a negative effect on sound. He claims that a simple fibonacci pattern carved into the material transforms it from a net negative to a positive. Leaving personal experience aside basic science and common sense tell you that it's not possible to change the basic nature of materials by carving patterns into them. This is the two sides of the argument. YMMV doesn't mean that panzerholz behaves differently in different systems, all it means is that depending on the state of the system one will hear more or less of it's nastiness.

david
 
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spiritofmusic

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I'll propose my first disagreement w you. You have no way of proving yr Ching Chengs are neutral, add/subtract nothing. This is how I feel about my Sablon pwr cords. I have way more accurate timbre and tone, compared to other cbls. This is a perfect example of you claiming your choice of cables is self effacing while claiming others choose cbls as tone controls. Total stalemate argument. What you consider a truism is just as subjective as Rhapsody Bob claiming his Daizas reveal natural timbre etc.
 

Folsom

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Well, one difference is David can repeat similar experiences in a few dozen systems with CC PC's. Yours may work perfectly for you but that isn't a very universal recommendation, based on one stereo.
 
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Steve Williams

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Marc

for $5.50 there is nothing that even comes close to a Ching Cheng PC.
IMO they are neutral.
I consider simething not neutral if if accentuates only one part of sound from top to bottom. There are things that will increase the sound from top to bottom without accentuating better bass or treble. IOW they seem to reduce the sound floor and bring you closer to the music.
Ching Cheng does that very thing

if what you have done makes you focus only on one part of the music that becomes hifi. I consider thr sound natural if my brain isn’t drawn to one aspect of the music
 
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adyc

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Maybe both CC power cable and Sablon power cable are neutral. But one costs $10 and the other costs ..,,
 

ddk

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I'll propose my first disagreement w you. You have no way of proving yr Ching Chengs are neutral, add/subtract nothing. This is how I feel about my Sablon pwr cords. I have way more accurate timbre and tone, compared to other cbls. This is a perfect example of you claiming your choice of cables is self effacing while claiming others choose cbls as tone controls. Total stalemate argument. What you consider a truism is just as subjective as Rhapsody Bob claiming his Daizas reveal natural timbre etc.
I don't care one way or another Marc and your Sablons might be even more neutral but the Daiza is basic science. As I mentioned I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, I started this thread to answer your questions take away what you like from it. I'm not trying to sell you or anyone anything either and the people who had them made their own choices one way or another.

david
 

spiritofmusic

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Dave, you made your observations very plain and direct on Tang's thread, leading to this thread. And you've laid out in reasonable detail your premise. And I'm responding to it. That's the point, yes?

My point on yr CC pwr cords is that your description of them is how I'd describe where I've gone w my cbls and other tweaks.

Areas that did seem dramatic before like Entreq are much diminished in my new room, there have been many cbls and esp footers that definitely skewed tonal balance, so I'm v open to reappraising stuff and occasionally eliminating items.

I've read occasional comments on Ching Cheng that states they're lacking in dynamics, and other pwr cords are preferred for being more natural in this area.

And thus one of yr premises remains as subjective and circular as any area of deep discussion in this hobby.
 

RogerD

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I can see where a CC PC would be neutral, if they are well made. They connect from the mains to the component IEC. I think the biggest difference would be the internal ground scheme of the electronics. Not all are created equal. Good tweaks effect the audio signal path in some degree good or bad. You could say that all passive,vibration,and active devices effect audio quality.
 

ddk

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Dave, you made your observations very plain and direct on Tang's thread, leading to this thread. And you've laid out in reasonable detail your premise. And I'm responding to it. That's the point, yes?

My point on yr CC pwr cords is that your description of them is how I'd describe where I've gone w my cbls and other tweaks.

Areas that did seem dramatic before like Entreq are much diminished in my new room, there have been many cbls and esp footers that definitely skewed tonal balance, so I'm v open to reappraising stuff and occasionally eliminating items.

I've read occasional comments on Ching Cheng that states they're lacking in dynamics, and other pwr cords are preferred for being more natural in this area.

And thus one of yr premises remains as subjective and circular as any area of deep discussion in this hobby.

Unless you're saying that power cords don't make a difference which I don't think is the case my arguments aren't circular and you're not addressing my point. I'm not promoting CC or any other brand as the ultimate of anything, my point is that many audiophile power cords alter sound and add heavy coloration, to achieve a baseline or reference point one needs to start with neutral wires. CC is what I use and something people can easily afford, I have no problem with people using anything they want. My other argument Daiza, isn't circular either. Find me a scientific paper that claims you can transform a slab of ultra rigid plywood's qualities in this drastic manner by simply cutting some grooves in it and I'll accept the possibility that Daiza works.

david
 
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marty

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"Why go Ching Cheng pwr cords? Can find pwr cords under $5 off Amazon."

You can certainly try, but IMHO it would be unproductive. Don't underestimate those nearly unbeatable Ching Chengs. They are indeed an extremely neutral and as near a "nothing" power cable as can likely be found for all but the most demanding high current delivery applications. And for the price, it's just silly stupid to aspire to anything else. (Unless of course, you find something else that floats your boat). Let's put it this way. I've tried a lot of other cables that made me feel silly stupid. The stupid meter peaked for me when I tried some 10K Tara PCs (that Fremer liked) that were not the equal of the CC's in terms of overall neutrality. The true miracle of the Ching Cheng is that nobody, not even ddk, understands what makes them so damned good. They don't seem to be made from any exotic ingredients and the plugs are molded for goodness sake. I stopped trying to figure them out a long time ago and just enjoy them for what they are. For low current-draw gear, I stopped looking for alternatives. They are a very satisfying "non-tweak"!
 
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Hieukm

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This thread is alarmingly worrying to the likes of brands like Nordost, MIT, Transparent, Siltech, Masterbuilt. It begs the question to existance of ching cheng interconnects, USB, LAN etc.
 

Folsom

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This thread is alarmingly worrying to the likes of brands like Nordost, MIT, Transparent, Siltech, Masterbuilt. It begs the question to existance of ching cheng interconnects, USB, LAN etc.

No it doesn't. CC makes nothing like that. And they don't care, they sell millions of power cords.
 

Mike Lavigne

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This thread is alarmingly worrying to the likes of brands like Nordost, MIT, Transparent, Siltech, Masterbuilt. It begs the question to existance of ching cheng interconnects, USB, LAN etc.

no, it's not. and no, it doesn't.

adding extra righteousness to opinions does not make them more than opinions.
 

RogerD

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What i meant was no one will buy other hi-end cables if $5 cord can outperform them.
Well I use quad mic cable which is about $3 a foot on all my RTR’s and my new Day Sequerra tuner. The performance level is the same. The room still disappears...makes me wonder. All my NBS and other high end cables were purchased years ago,so they stay,but if I add any cables it will be quad mic cable or regular PC’s
 

tima

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... my point is that many audiophile power cords alter sound and add heavy coloration, to achieve a baseline or reference point one needs to start with neutral wires
my emphasis

I'm of a similar mind certainly from a theoretical standpoint, and have little interest in using power cords to 'tune' the sound of my system.

Within my limited grasp of electricity I'm told that the electricity in my house can have "noise on the line." I'm told this can come in from the street (possible though not so much), can come from appliances in my house (more likely) and from the components of my audio system (more likely still.) I'm told this line noise can result in distortion of the audio signal and/or poorer sound. Some audiophile power cord manufacturers claim to reduce or eliminate this noise, and, of those that do, I certainly hear differences in sound with and without such cords in use.

In the context of this discussion, I gather that "neutral wires" are those that don't intentionally alter what comes off the wall or attempt to change the state of the electricity within the audio system, eg. noise induced by components onto the line, switching power supplies, etc.

So... assuming line noise is a reality, is line noise distortion? Or is the removal of line noise distortion or lead to sound distortion?

David, I'm guessing your view is practical and says: remove the audiophile power cords to achieve a neutral baseline.

Where I struggle is with the question: "what is neutral?" Is neutral the native electricity coming off the wall and what's within the audio system? Or is neutral the absence of possibly electrically altering audiophile power cords? (What I might call "tweak minimalism".)

My second question, if I may is: where do you stand wrt manufacturer supplied power cords vs. say, the Ching Cheng? If it depends on the manufacturer's cord, let's use Lamm supplied power cords as the example. It sounds like Stever replaced his Lamm front-end component cords with Ching-Cheng. Are the native cords not neutral?
 

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