PCC88 tubes

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I'm considering trying some PCC88 tubes in my preamp as an alternative to the 6N23P tubes I'm more used to.

I've been a bit unlucky w the 6N23P ones I've tried recently, and at 6.3V there's a possibility my Nat preamp is driving them too hard. So I thought I'd try these 7V tubes.

Looking at Philips, National Matsushita and Telefunken PCC88 quads. Any opinions out there?
 

3rdRock

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Sep 11, 2018
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Nashville, TN
I'm considering trying some PCC88 tubes in my preamp as an alternative to the 6N23P tubes I'm more used to.

I've been a bit unlucky w the 6N23P ones I've tried recently, and at 6.3V there's a possibility my Nat preamp is driving them too hard. So I thought I'd try these 7V tubes.

Looking at Philips, National Matsushita and Telefunken PCC88 quads. Any opinions out there?

I have various NOS platinum grade matched pairs of 6dj8/6922/7dj8/pc88/7308 tubes, including the expensive Siemens & Telefunken Cca varities and surprisingly, the tubes that I prefer in my system are the very reasonably priced National Matsushita PCC88. (You can get a Platinum grade, matched pair, cyrogenically treated from Kevin at Upscale Audio for around $100!)

Midrange is about par with the expensive NOS German tubes, but they have an extended Bass & Treble which makes them sublime at low listening levels since they assist in offsetting the effects of the Fletcher Munson curve. A real gem of a tube that many overlook as they chase the 'holy grail' tubes.
 
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spiritofmusic

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3rdRock, thanks for that. Kevin doesn't sell outside the US, but my reliable UK dealer sells the National Matsushita for a really reasonable price, claiming matched pairs and quads.

Low level listening is a boon, and my Zu/Nats system is tonally dense w good natural timbre and bloom. These sound the ideal tubes.

I'll also be intrigued to see if their 7V rating means they're less stressed by my Nat preamp than the 6.3V 6N23P usual suspects.

Can you elaborate a bit re comment on Fletcher Munson curve?
 

3rdRock

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2018
19
23
110
Nashville, TN
The Fletcher Munson curve is a phenomenon of human hearing.

A Google search will provide you with a more detailed explaination, but basically, when listening to music, as the loudness changes, the perceived loudness our brains hear will change at a different rate, depending on the frequency.
  • At low listening volumes – mid range frequencies sound more prominent, while the low and high frequency ranges seem to fall into the background.
  • At high listening volumes – the lows and highs sound more prominent, while the mid range seems comparatively softer.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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So, offsetting this curve means less "loss" of bass and treble at lower volumes?

These Matsushita PCC88 tubes keep a more consistent balance across the frequency range when the playback is quieter?

Can't imagine that this is anything other than positive.
 

3rdRock

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Sep 11, 2018
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Nashville, TN
Exactly!!! Enjoy!
 

spiritofmusic

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Well, I will especially if they don't become noisy as rapidly as my 6N23P tubes I had been relying on.

I was about to spend 3x as much on the Tekefunken PCC88 tubes, so thanks for helping me save the balance LOL.

Will be handy if I ever consider going over to The Dark Side, re the €3k and €6k TMayer Elrog 211 quads and 211 Molybdenum Plate quads for my Nat monos.
 

microstrip

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IMHO you should properly diagnose your problem and its cause before starting spending money on tubes ...
 

Blue58

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Jan 20, 2013
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London, UK
I'm considering trying some PCC88 tubes in my preamp as an alternative to the 6N23P tubes I'm more used to.

I've been a bit unlucky w the 6N23P ones I've tried recently, and at 6.3V there's a possibility my Nat preamp is driving them too hard. So I thought I'd try these 7V tubes.

Looking at Philips, National Matsushita and Telefunken PCC88 quads. Any opinions out there?
7V is the heater voltage and has nothing to do with driving the tubes too hard.
If your heater voltage is 6.3V you’ll be potentially reducing emission of the PCC88 as you’re 10% under spec.
Now if your voltage is actually 7V then you’ve been running the 6N23P at 11% over spec potentially shortening their life.
This still has nothing to do with driving them hard.
Buying and trying tubes is not the way to test your amp. You wouldn’t do it if they were 300Bs.
 
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spiritofmusic

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I'm very happy to take my Nat to any competent engineer. I can source the schematics, although apparently no two Nats are COMPLETELY identical.

These PCC88 tubes will set me back v little money, certainly if I run thru this fourth set of tubes that end up stressed, then I'll have to get that second opinion.
 

microstrip

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I'm very happy to take my Nat to any competent engineer. (...)

If you preamplifier systematically kills tubes there must be a technical reason for it . The most often seen problems for short life of preamplifier double triode tubes is excessive current or anode voltage or using the triode sections in parallel. In the later case if poorly matched one triode carries much more current than the other and dies very soon.
 

spiritofmusic

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I'll defer to yr greater knowledge here. Time for a service, methinks. If these tubes last 48 hrs, I'll send the preamp to my service contact.
 

cjfrbw

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Matsushita tubes were made from Mullard equipment sent to Japan, and expertly implemented by the Japanese. I have a Matsushita 5AR4 rectifier that is indistinguishable for the most part anatomically from a genuine Mullard 5AR4 rectifier that I also have. Matsushita 'mullard' 12at7's are great tubes. I like them as much if not better than telefunken eecc801s and regular telefunken ecc801 that I have. Telefunkens are clean, clear and tidy, while the Mat 12at7 have that nice warmth.

Tube snobbery has led to the elevation of certain tube types as veblens. Fortunately, tubes like the Matsushitas can still be had at reasonable cost and seem to have escaped the snob radar, which is true of many Japanese tubes.

I also have some orange globe Amperex japanese 6dj8's that I think are every bit as good as the Western versions in my collection, great tubes.
 
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microstrip

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Matsushita tubes were made from Mullard equipment sent to Japan, and expertly implemented by the Japanese. I have a Matsushita 5AR4 rectifier that is indistinguishable for the most part anatomically from a genuine Mullard 5AR4 rectifier that I also have. Matsushita 'mullard' 12at7's are great tubes. I like them as much if not better than telefunken eecc801s and regular telefunken ecc801 that I have. Telefunkens are clean, clear and tidy, while the Mat 12at7 have that nice warmth.

Tube snobbery has led to the elevation of certain tube types as veblens. Fortunately, tubes like the Matsushitas can still be had at reasonable cost and seem to have escaped the snob radar, which is true of many Japanese tubes.

I also have some orange globe Amperex japanese 6dj8's that I think are every bit as good as the Western versions in my collection, great tubes.

I was going to post on Matushita tubes, your post preceded mine.

Unfortunately brands that do not have their own factories usually sourced them from several factories along time and just relabel them. Plenty of knowledge and expertise is needed when buying them, the Matushita label per se does not assure good quality.

In the past I have got some 6DJ8 Matushita's for my SP10 that really sounded miserable - never managed to identify their origin. But for example, I got some great very cheap Zaerix great tubes - an obscure UK unknown brand - that sounded excellent. Carefully checking I found they were Mullard's!
 

cjfrbw

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The matsushita dual triodes that 'flash' tend to be the ones that are mullard based. You can get duds from any tube, even the exalted ones. I bought a pair of triple mica 'forever' Siemens a while ago, hoping they would be plug 'n forget in my Wavacs. One of them blew out in a couple of days. I found the other one in my tube stash recently, tested it, and only one triode half was operational. They had been advertised as NOS at a pretty penny and looked very nice.

Yes, a lot of tubes in the day were extremely incestuous in labeling and parts. It is not unusual to see a 'matched' pair on ebay with different labels i.e. Westinghouse on one and Ken Rad on the other, with identical anatomy.

One of the interesting 'blind shot' tubes were the ones with the heavy RCA red label, that could be telefunkens, mullards, amperex, siemens etc. Many Radio Shack tubes are likewise from the 'desirable' factories. Somebody who is intricately versed in tube anatomy can pick out great 'mislabeled' bargains by looking carefully at the photos.

One of the strange tidbits of tube history is that in the day, Americans valued USA manufactured brands and considered the European brands to be less desirable or unreliable, so the euros were often bulk sold and re-labled because they were 'cheaper'.

Heh, Heh, now you have veblens audiophiles tripping over each other to throw big money at the NOS euro brands with their contingent mythologies.
 
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wisnon

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Dec 12, 2011
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PCC88 is a TV tube. Local guy had them here selling for a buck a piece, mostly Seimens, but with very little takers and him in pre-retirement mode...he dumped them all!
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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PCC88 adventure on hold. Current quad of ECC88 ie Reflektor Silver Shields are checking out nicely, a gentle uptick over my previous Voskhod Rockets, and seemingly less fussy/more reliable too.
 

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