Planar vs Horn

[Choqueiro]

Planar vs Horn design; or Alsyvox Botticelli vs Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 Reference; or Full Range Ribbon vs Field Coil Horn Speaker.

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic and intimate experience (the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert), warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Any opinions?? Any preferences?? Any personal experiences hearing those specific models??

Thanks in advance

 

[Lampie519]

Not again ! LOL

;-)

I think this has been discussed here before, please search the forum first.

Best wishes, Frank

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think it's okay, Frank. Please let's help Juan here with his specific model comparison questions.

 

[Lampie519]

"opening a can of worms" ?

Sure we will help answering (or even confuse him more) the best way we can ....

On a serious note.... as can be seen on my signature, i am a planar guy (until convinced otherwise)

Best wishes, Frank

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Frank!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Juan,

People will be glad to give their opinions, but nothing matters except what you think when you listen to these loudspeakers with your own ears. I understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, to audition these speakers anywhere near where you live. Can you combine an audition of one or both of these models of loudspeakers with a family trip of some kind?

I feel that this post must be accompanied with a public service announcement warning: DO NOT BUY LOUDSPEAKERS YOU HAVE NOT AUDITIONED

Nonetheless, I appreciate that you are grasping for guidance and anecdotes of some kind.

Unfortunately, I have not heard either of the specific loudspeakers you mentioned. I am looking forward to hearing the small Alsyvox on June 11 at T.H.E. Show in Long Beach, California.

I believe strongly that as one's actual audition and ownership experience evolves over time musical genre preference consciously or subconsciously eventually drives loudspeaker preference. My primary musical genre interest is solo vocals. My ears (no intended declaration of general applicability here) find that planar loudspeakers in general reproduce solo vocals in a realistic and convincing manner. Also, I personally like the "open" sonic presentation I hear from planar loudspeakers in general.

Between these two speakers, if I could not audition either one, because my primary musical genre interest is solo vocals and because of my experience with a variety of planar loudspeakers, I would take the risk on the Botticelli.

If my primary musical genre interest were jazz, I would take the risk on the T1.5 Reference.

PS: The good news is that both of the speakers you have asked about have many experienced fans. While each of these speakers likely would offer noticeably different overall sonic presentations, assuming you selected complementary associated components, you likely would be very happy whichever way you go.

 

[Lampie519]

You also mentioned that you would not appreciate the "in your face sound".
In my experience it is not the loudspeaker that is resposible for this phenomenon but the source and (pre)amplification.
I am not sure if others also have this experience (as i am talking about mine).

 

[twitch]

planars, while I love them, will not give you deep bass or the dynamics of the better 'cone' drivers. So if that's a pre-requisite scratch them off your list.

 

[Lampie519]

planars, while I love them, will not give you deep bass or the dynamics of the better 'cone' drivers. So if that's a pre-requisite scratch them off your list.

My guess you have never heard a set that can... this does not mean they do not exist...

Try this track for bass response (i need to pause to check if it from outside or from my set):
Andreas Vollenweider , a walk with my father about 4min (after the flute solo)...

A Walk with My Father (Summer Rain) (feat. Walter Keiser, Peter Keiser, Max Lässer, Philippe... - YouTube

 

[Choqueiro]

Hi!!

My intention is not to make angry anyone. I know that they are some “similar” old threads on the forum and I have read them before starting the new thread. My intention, is not only to obtain the expert comments from the people on the forum about the general differences between these two technologies, but also the specific differences between these two models if someone had the opportunity to listen to them.

I must tell you that I don’t have the opportunity of hearing the great majority of the products in which I’m interested. I know that audition is the most important part of an election process. But in most cases that is going to be imposible to me. Does it mean that I must refuse the great majority of the speakers in which I’m interested?? Does it mean that I must avoid most of the best products and brands of the Hi-Fi?? My answer is No. And that’s the reason of asking in the forums to knowledge people like you.

About Alsyvox. I talked last week with Daniel Coen (Alsyvox is a rare case of an audio company located in Spain, my country). But the possibility of hearing in person a pair of Botticelli’s (COVID problems appart), is that there is no availability for a few months (they no have anyone in stock). Also I t’s a company that works upon request.

About Classic Audio Loudspeakers. I talked, also, with John Wolff. The problem here is that it is impossible to heard them on my country an the only distributor in Europe works upon request.

I do not exclude the possibility of making a trip and go to an audio show but, right now, in the actual circumstances (COVID) and according to my particular familiar situation is a remote possibility.

Yes, in USA maybe the “trip of hearing and rule out“ is easiest, but I live in Spain unfortunately, and here there is practically no tradition or audiophile companies.

Thanks so much to everyone.

 

[Rhapsody]

planars, while I love them, will not give you deep bass or the dynamics of the better 'cone' drivers. So if that's a pre-requisite scratch them off your list.

Dave, Have you heard Alsyvox Botticellis?

 

[Lampie519]

My intention is not to make angry anyone

Nobody is angry here ! We love to discuss these topics.

This thread will be a long one, trust me, lol ...

 

[Lampie519]

No independent bass speaker can be done with all set's you are referring to, just the amount of space need to be available when choosing planars. On the other hand planars are "affordable", more then horns (compared with the same quality of sound reproduction) as they are less complex to produce. So the planars can give you the best bang for your buck. If you do not care about this and want deeeep bass then planars in a small space is not the way to go as has been mentioned before (as most of us speak about the best possible scenario of each option).

Detail, microdynamics and space (holographics) can be accomplished with all systems as this has to do with the front end not the speakers (my opinion).

 

[adyc]

Hi!!

My intention is not to make angry anyone. I know that they are some “similar” old threads on the forum and I have read them before starting the new thread. My intention, is not only to obtain the expert comments from the people on the forum about the general differences between these two technologies, but also the specific differences between these two models if someone had the opportunity to listen to them.

I must tell you that I don’t have the opportunity of hearing the great majority of the products in which I’m interested. I know that audition is the most important part of an election process. But in most cases that is going to be imposible to me. Does it mean that I must refuse the great majority of the speakers in which I’m interested?? Does it mean that I must avoid most of the best products and brands of the Hi-Fi?? My answer is No. And that’s the reason of asking in the forums to knowledge people like you.

About Alsyvox. I talked last week with Daniel Coen (Alsyvox is a rare case of an audio company located in Spain, my country). But the possibility of hearing in person a pair of Botticelli’s (COVID problems appart), is that there is no availability for a few months (they no have anyone in stock). Also I t’s a company that works upon request.

About Classic Audio Loudspeakers. I talked, also, with John Wolff. The problem here is that it is impossible to heard them on my country an the only distributor in Europe works upon request.

I do not exclude the possibility of making a trip and go to an audio show but, right now, in the actual circumstances (COVID) and according to my particular familiar situation is a remote possibility.

Yes, in USA maybe the “trip of hearing and rule out“ is easiest, but I live in Spain unfortunately, and here there is practically no tradition or audiophile companies.

Thanks so much to everyone.

Have you heard the YouTube video made by Rhapsody? He has videos from Diesis, Alsyvox and Bayz of same tracks. I consistently much prefer the sound from Alysyvox. I am very surprised as I am not a planar fan. I also find videos of T1.5 in YouTube. I found T1.5 sound bass is a bit thin. It is not just one video. The lack of bass punch is consistently absent in all the videos. Before you dismiss YouTube. I have no problem hearing bass punch from Rhapsody videos of Alsyvox.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Planar vs Horn design; or Alsyvox Botticelli vs Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 Reference; or Full Range Ribbon vs Field Coil Horn Speaker.

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic and intimate experience (the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert), warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Any opinions?? Any preferences?? Any personal experiences hearing those specific models??

Thanks in advance

Hi Juan,
Great to have those speakers as options. Of all the planar or panel types of speakers the ribbons and the open baffle are types I personally have found the most joy in.

Properly sorted ribbon panel or OB bass are among the very best bass if you look to athletic, well structured and more real and natural bass.

The Alsyvox Botticelli would be at the top of my audition list if I was choosing ribbon also.

Horns are among the most personal of preferences as even small seemingly subtle changes seem to create greater experiential shifts between them perhaps because great horns communicate so much and the micro dynamic shifts alter the characteristic nature a great deal.

I have two horns I’ve been working on and both with similar drivers just one with more 15 inch woofers and as a 16ohm and the other using the same model 15 inch drivers as 8ohm and even that shift creates quite different outcomes I experience of music.

Changing materials between horns is as big a shift as changing the horn profiles and then going large multi-way v 2 way they are completely different beasts again.

They have such variable influential characteristic shifts possible. I would also suggest that if you couldn’t audition anything that the potential safer choice of going with the planar might be easier to arrive at than would with the horn. That said I’d go the horn route (and I have panels and horns) but that personal choice means little for your best choice.

You could build amazing systems around either choices I figure. Some choices might lead you more to amazing sound through the music, the other might lead you to amazing music through sound. These are essentially different outcomes either way but potentially great fun times ahead with all of this. Enjoy.

 

[jeff1225]

I’ve only heard the Classic Audio speakers and I’ve enjoyed them very much.

Have you heard the YouTube video made by Rhapsody? He has videos from Diesis, Alsyvox and Bayz of same tracks. I consistently much prefer the sound from Alysyvox. I am very surprised as I am not a planar fan. I also find videos of T1.5 in YouTube. I found T1.5 sound bass is a bit thin. It is not just one video. The lack of bass punch is consistently absent in all the videos. Before you dismiss YouTube. I have no problem hearing bass punch from Rhapsody videos of Alsyvox.

The issue with the T1.5 videos you find on Youtube is the recording. I've heard them multiple times and the bass is anything but thin.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Audionec speakers with the right front end should tick all the boxes.

Personally I would go direct to the manufacturer unless you can find a stockist? I say this so that you avoid re-sellers as they demand profit without risk.

The speakers are modular and upgradeable to quite an astonishing degree.

Sadly a properly configured field coil horn system will cost north of £500,000.

Rhapsody in NY seem very trustworthy as they are stockists of their products bravo indeed.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[Hear Here]

I feel that this post must be accompanied with a public service announcement warning: DO NOT BUY LOUDSPEAKERS YOU HAVE NOT AUDITIONED

I would add to that last sentence ...IN YOUR OWN HOME

I considered switching from horns (old Avantgardes) to electrostatics (new Martin Logan 13As) and read rave reviews and enjoyed a showroom demo. Convinced of their sound quality and enjoying their presentation of familiar music, I ordered a pair.

Well despite these new speakers having Anthem DSP and setting them up and DSP'd with the help of the importer, they just sounded uninvolving and even the 17 year old horns sounded appreciably better on direct comparison – agreed by all who listened.

The reason - my room requires that speakers are placed mid-room, with 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. This makes any speaker that projects half its energy backwards unsuitable in my room. Had I insisted on a home trial, I'd not have bought them and wouldn't have lost a ton of cash selling them "used" after a couple of months. I then bought newer Duos and more recently new Duo XDs, so sticking I’m with horns. However the MLs did sound much better in my dining area - behind the speakers where the horns lose much of their sparkle.

 

[caesar]

Planar vs Horn design; or Alsyvox Botticelli vs Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 Reference; or Full Range Ribbon vs Field Coil Horn Speaker.

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic and intimate experience (the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert), warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Any opinions?? Any preferences?? Any personal experiences hearing those specific models??

Thanks in advance

Hi,
If dynamics are a must for you, get horns. I own Soundlabs and have heard most of the planars out there, including the latest offerings... my MBLs, even if single -amped DESTROY any panel speaker when it come to dynamics. When my MBLs are bi-amped, I get near-horn dynamics...

And not trying to be flippant, but get both, if room and budget allows. Different technologies present a different emotional take on the music.

 

[Choqueiro]

Thanks so much to everyone for all the comments. As always, I learn a lot with you.

@caesar you are my man!!! Buying both is the best solution and I will also have the best of both worlds or technologies!!! The only problem is money... (hahaha). If I could buy both, surely I would not be around here asking people which one to choose (hahaha).

Seriously, that’s what this is about. Trying to get the best option because I can’t buy both. I must remind you that I will also have to buy the rest of the equipment after deciding the speakers...

There are “classical“ problems associated with this two technologies (nothing is perfect):

It is said that horn speakers have a “nasal sound“ (in other words, the main differenciating characteristic of this technology could be, curiously, a “problem”). Bass also, many times, is not as powerful or deep as it needed and in most cases they are recommended independent subs. Dynamism seems to be the greatest virtue of horns. Jazz is a classical example of music that goes really well with horns.

Electrostatic, magneplanar or ribbon speakers, are incredible on the holographic experience but they have two big problems: they are not the most dynamics and the bass is (in general) poor. It is also said that this type of speakers have not a long durability (in opposition to box speakers for example) and also it´s a technology more likely to have issues and needs reparations more frequently. Any opinion?? If I could avoid any maintenance or at least that the manteinance or the “degradation” be minimum (I‘m not going to have easy access to technical assitance near home ) is a “plus“ that I have to take into account. Vocals seems the perfect music for panels.

I’m not going to lie you. Until very recently, panels were not an option to me. But a few days ago, I discovered Alsyvox ribbon-plannar speakers... Alsyvox speakers are advertised on their web with these qualities: “The transparency and imaging of the best planar speakers; The dynamics and low distortion of the best big horns; The tonal balance of the best monitors; The efficiency you need to use almost any amplifier; The authoritative bass of a big cone woofer”. That‘s a lot!!! If everything is true they are without doubt the best speakers on the market!!! (hahaha). After reading that my first thought was: “marketing stuff of the high-end...”. So I decide to investigate a little. And yes, @adyc Isaw the videos of Rapshody on youtube and a I also exchange some emails with him, and the comments, for his part, were really good and favorable. Dynamism and bass were really great. One of his first loudspeakers choices/recommendation right now... The only problem, in the comparison I’m proposing, is that Rapshody never heard any of the Classic Audio Loudspeakers.

Are the Alsyvox something special on the panels designs?? People is saying that they are far better than Maggies... That’s a lot... But most important, are the Alsyvox speakers worthy?? They are really expensive and as @Lampie519 said traditionlly “plannars are more affordable”. Anything justify on the Alsyvox such price???

Yesterday, I return to heard som recordings of the Rockport Cygnus... Good animals.... I’m really lost.... Hahaha

Thanks to everyone