Planar vs Horn

[morricab]

No, I said only omni and planars (dipoles). Some open baffle dynamic speaker can make a good soundstage but by design the wave at rear is different due to the emission surface that is not mirror of the front wave. Brain can hear "soundstage" due to difference in level and sound reflected sound, but it's not real mirror 3D sound emission.
However soundstage is also revealed by efficiency and detail retrieval of ambiant cues. Omni has moderate efficiency so it's the reason why planars that are at more than 93/94 dB and capable of micro ambiant cues retrieval offer a realistic soundstage, and for 2 listeners at the same time sometimes 3.

As someone who owned many planar speakers (Infinity IRS Beta, Audiostatic ES100, STAX ELS F-81, DIY BG hybrids, Apogee Caliper Signatures, Acoustat 1+1, Acoustat Spectra 2200 and Acoustat Spectra 4400) I don't agree that you can't get holographic imaging and soundstage with other speaker technologies. While I agree that they are better than most other speaker types in that regard...there are examples of other tech doing an amazing job. Of course good horns will have the upper hand in life like dynamics...even over higher sensitivity planars (I love the Alsyvox speakers FWIW...they are just too expensive, IMO).

 

[Choqueiro]

As someone who owned many planar speakers (Infinity IRS Beta, Audiostatic ES100, STAX ELS F-81, DIY BG hybrids, Apogee Caliper Signatures, Acoustat 1+1, Acoustat Spectra 2200 and Acoustat Spectra 4400) I don't agree that you can't get holographic imaging and soundstage with other speaker technologies. While I agree that they are better than most other speaker types in that regard...there are examples of other tech doing an amazing job. Of course good horns will have the upper hand in life like dynamics...even over higher sensitivity planars (I love the Alsyvox speakers FWIW...they are just too expensive, IMO).

Hi morricab. Thanks for your comment. Yes, many people think also that you can get holographic imaging and soundstage with other technologies. In your experience what are great examples of good holographic imaging in other designs?? Please, if it’s possible indicate model/brand. I’m really curious to know alternatives to planars. Thanks

 

[PhP]

As someone who owned many planar speakers (Infinity IRS Beta, Audiostatic ES100, STAX ELS F-81, DIY BG hybrids, Apogee Caliper Signatures, Acoustat 1+1, Acoustat Spectra 2200 and Acoustat Spectra 4400) I don't agree that you can't get holographic imaging and soundstage with other speaker technologies. While I agree that they are better than most other speaker types in that regard...there are examples of other tech doing an amazing job. Of course good horns will have the upper hand in life like dynamics...even over higher sensitivity planars (I love the Alsyvox speakers FWIW...they are just too expensive, IMO).

I say that great planars and omnis re create the best 3D imaging, some other speakers make a good soundstage but not on par in my experience, not realistic enough. I also had electrostatic, and many highly regarded electrodynamic speakers. I listened horns many time but they do not represent a mirror of real unamplified sound to my ears. From past planars, Apogee was great especially Diva. One of my friend has a modified Quad ESL 63 from a German company, and at the moderate price they are really excellent in tones and soundstage, with of course limitation of the speaker. Tintoretto from ALSYVOX is really a good option when music lover want high-resolution, realistic soundstage, neutrality with very high sensibility that could match moderate output power amplifier. I choose Botticelli X because I want even more bass, more slam.
As you are in Switzerland, near me (PHPAUDIO is 7 km from ), I invite you to listen to ALSYVOX with different amplification and digital than ALSYVOX demonstrate in shows or in Spain. I will get my new Botticelli X at the beginning of March . Nice day

 

[Choqueiro]

I say that great planars and omnis re create the best 3D imaging, some other speakers make a good soundstage but not on par in my experience, not realistic enough. I also had electrostatic, and many highly regarded electrodynamic speakers. I listened horns many time but they do not represent a mirror of real unamplified sound to my ears. From past planars, Apogee was great especially Diva. One of my friend has a modified Quad ESL 63 from a German company, and at the moderate price they are really excellent in tones and soundstage, with of course limitation of the speaker. Tintoretto from ALSYVOX is really a good option when music lover want high-resolution, realistic soundstage, neutrality with very high sensibility that could match moderate output power amplifier. I choose Botticelli X because I want even more bass, more slam.
As you are in Switzerland, near me (PHPAUDIO is 7 km from ), I invite you to listen to ALSYVOX with different amplification and digital than ALSYVOX demonstrate in shows or in Spain. I will get my new Botticelli X at the beginning of March . Nice day

"One of my friend has a modified Quad ESL 63 from a German company, and at the moderate price they are really excellent in tones and soundstage, with of course limitation of the speaker"

PhP, i f I´m not mistaken the speakers are from Manfred Stein´s company "Quad Musikwiedergabe": https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/esl63 or https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/esl63-qa. They also have two versions of the Quad 57. I search a little about this company. Mixed opinions. Amazing exterior reconstructions but discreet results on sound.

If you want the best results on sound performance exclusively, the best Quad´s rebuilders (apart from the Wayne Picquet, unfortunately passed away recently), seem to be: Kent McCollum from "Electrostatic Solutions" (http://estatsolution.com/) and Sheldon Stokes from "SDS Audio Labs" (https://www.quadesl.com/).

Obviously, as you said, there are many limitations with these speakers. So I´m really interested in opinions about others technologies with great holographic imaging and soundsatge.

Thanks.

 

[Hear Here]

I say that great planars and omnis re create the best 3D imaging, some other speakers make a good soundstage but not on par in my experience, not realistic enough. I also had electrostatic, and many highly regarded electrodynamic speakers. I listened horns many time but they do not represent a mirror of real unamplified sound to my ears. From past planars, Apogee was great especially Diva. One of my friend has a modified Quad ESL 63 from a German company, and at the moderate price they are really excellent in tones and soundstage, with of course limitation of the speaker. Tintoretto from ALSYVOX is really a good option when music lover want high-resolution, realistic soundstage, neutrality with very high sensibility that could match moderate output power amplifier. I choose Botticelli X because I want even more bass, more slam.
As you are in Switzerland, near me (PHPAUDIO is 7 km from ), I invite you to listen to ALSYVOX with different amplification and digital than ALSYVOX demonstrate in shows or in Spain. I will get my new Botticelli X at the beginning of March . Nice day

Well, my experience with omnis is totally different regarding imaging vs horns.

My semi-circular room has the speakers placed near the centre of the room with 12 ft and 15 ft behind them. I've been using horns for years, but thought that omnis may be better as the sound from behind the speakers (my dining and kitchen areas) is far from good with very directional horns. So omnis should probably be the best TYPE of speaker for my room.

I visited dealers for German Physics and MSB to see how omnis sounded. Yes, they sound very good and almost equally good from many different listening positions, BUT the imaging when sitting in the main listening chair is dire compared with horns. Close your eyes and point to a particular instrument - clear as day with horns (that must be properly set up) but woolly with omnis - both brands almost identically so. If it's imaging you want (and I place this near the top of my listening ideals), then horns first, electrostatics next (I've not tried other planars) and the rest including omnis some way behind.

For "selfish" listening (ie on your own with no concern for others sitting in less than ideal positions) there is absolutely nothing like a horn - there should be a song about that?

 

[PhP]

"One of my friend has a modified Quad ESL 63 from a German company, and at the moderate price they are really excellent in tones and soundstage, with of course limitation of the speaker"

PhP, i f I´m not mistaken the speakers are from Manfred Stein´s company "Quad Musikwiedergabe": https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/esl63 or https://www.quad-musik.de/index.php/en/products/electrostatics/esl63-qa. They also have two versions of the Quad 57. I search a little about this company. Mixed opinions. Amazing exterior reconstructions but discreet results on sound.

If you want the best results on sound performance exclusively, the best Quad´s rebuilders (apart from the Wayne Picquet, unfortunately passed away recently), seem to be: Kent McCollum from "Electrostatic Solutions" (http://estatsolution.com/) and Sheldon Stokes from "SDS Audio Labs" (https://www.quadesl.com/).

Obviously, as you said, there are many limitations with these speakers. So I´m really interested in opinions about others technologies with great holographic imaging and soundsatge.

Thanks.

Please contact me at phpaudio@orange.fr, we could have more exchange about your ask
KR
Philippe

 

[wisnon]

I am going to try to mate my Heil AMT Kitharas with a vintage pair of Podium Sound 1.5s and see how they fare. The Kithara has an upward facing 10 inch conical woofer and the Podiums are 5ft high by 2.5ft wide and present an easy load. Should be interesting to see how the pistonic waves blend with the tranverse waves.

Pictures attached.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

I possess approximately eight years of experience working with Classic Audio Loudspeakers, covering nearly all of their models, which includes the T3.4 and T1.5 Field Coils. I have distributed a few of them throughout Asia, specifically to those who display an affinity for Western Electric but desire something that is emotionally engaging without the associated large space or cost involved with owning such horns and drivers.
In my opinion, the Field Coil Version is without a doubt the best offering from Classic Audio.

These speakers are extremely fast, akin to stats, but possess a substantive and engaging presence, filling the room with music. I have transitioned from solid state to the Tungar Power Supply, and to my amazement, this has resulted in an elevated performance. The bass has improved, and the midrange vocals now possess a smoothness that the solid state system was unable to provide. The potential of the speaker is also heavily dependent on the source, amplifiers, and power supplies, as any changes to these components are immediately discernible. These speakers are highly dynamic and produce a smooth sound, with the bass being room-filling, provided that a good amplifier is used.

Similarly, I believe that these speakers are versatile enough to be used in rooms of various sizes, and their aesthetic appeal is undeniable. Every time you listen to them, they create a spellbinding experience. If one is fortunate, they may come across a pair on eBay at a fraction of the original retail price.