Planar vs Horn

[morricab]

No - In fact I bought a Sanders Magtech amp specifically to power the ML 13As but I also used a GamuT D200 Mk III and other amps. I concluded the problem with electrostatics of the ML design is that they require a wall behind them to harvest some of the 50% of their output that is projected backwards. In my room the wall (in fact floor-to-ceiling glass) is angled and 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. The result (with any amp) was disappointing even with Anthem DSP. In fact my ancient Avantgarde Unos still sounded appreciable better than the new MLs. Peter

Yes, I found my planars worked best a bit over 1 meter from the wall behind them.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

No - In fact I bought a Sanders Magtech amp specifically to power the ML 13As but I also used a GamuT D200 Mk III and other amps. I concluded the problem with electrostatics of the ML design is that they require a wall behind them to harvest some of the 50% of their output that is projected backwards. In my room the wall (in fact floor-to-ceiling glass) is angled and 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. The result (with any amp) was disappointing even with Anthem DSP. In fact my ancient Avantgarde Unos still sounded appreciable better than the new MLs. Peter

My friend uses a sanders magtech with his Maggie’s and he’s very happy.

 

[ACHiPo]

I'd like to listen to Sound Labs again. I remember the first time I heard them back in the late 80s they sounded as real as any speaker I've heard. They were playing in a different room and I really thought there was a live piano and guitar player back there. I'm curious if I would still be so impressed. I also wonder how they would do with the wide variety of music I listen to.

Well, I’m trying to set up demos of a pair of Sound Lab Ultimate 745s (planars) and Classic Audio Loudspeaker T3s (horns) next week. I’m looking forward to hearing both and comparing the sound.

 

[Hear Here]

Well, I’m trying to set up demos of a pair of Sound Lab Ultimate 745s (planars) and Classic Audio Loudspeaker T3s (horns) next week. I’m looking forward to hearing both and comparing the sound.

Interesting trial. Horns and planars have very different setting up requirements so placement may be nowhere near the same, in particular distance from the back wall.

I had Avantgarde horns and Martin Logan planars togeter (new ML 13As vs old AG Unos) but the planars (even with Anthem room crrection) were quickly found to be unsuitable for my room where there's 12 and 15 ft behind the 2 speakers. Unfortunately it wasn't possible to place the MLs with a suitable wall behind them to harvest some of the 50% of energy that's projected backwards, so they were promptly re-sold. I hope your tests turn out better than mine, although it confirmed my faith in horns and I've since upgrades to Duo XDs. Peter

PS - and of course the amp requirements of planars and horns could hardly be more different, so your trials should include amps suitable for each pair of speakers!

 

[PhP]

Planar vs Horn design; or Alsyvox Botticelli vs Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 Reference; or Full Range Ribbon vs Field Coil Horn Speaker.

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic and intimate experience (the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert), warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Any opinions?? Any preferences?? Any personal experiences hearing those specific models??

Thanks in advance

Hello
Horns have plenty of dynamic and high sensitivity. I listened to many, not the model you mentioned. In my experience, I much prefer high sensitivity speakers but without horn. I decided to be ALSYVOX dealer by passion to these planars, so transparent, free of distorsion with wonderful soundstage, and for 2 listeners, not only one.

 

[Don Reid]

I can't imagine how anyone can judge the sound of speakers or other audio kit by listening to videos. Every video I hear sounds like Mirage M290- bookshelf speakers driven by a class D amplifier which is my computer audio rig.

 

[Zero000]

Yes, I found my planars worked best a bit over 1 meter from the wall behind them.

Interesting.

My Apogees are at 40 inches. And were in the previous room.

I notice that Alsyvox or Daniele if you like seem to want their speakers setup with A LOT of free rear space. I should have asked him about that when I was talking to him at Munich. Too busy drinking his Prosecco and parmesan offerings, obviously

 

[Hear Here]

Interesting.

My Apogees are at 40 inches. And were in the previous room.

I notice that Alsyvox or Daniele if you like seem to want their speakers setup with A LOT of free rear space. I should have asked him about that when I was talking to him at Munich. Too busy drinking his Prosecco and parmesan offerings, obviously

If those speakers are typical of electrostatics where half the energy produced by the panel is projected backwards, I'd challenge that claim! I had Martin Logan Expression 13A speakers placed in my room with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other (it's a very odd shaped room) and they were far from happy. Even with Anthem room correction doing its best to make the most of the room, the sound was decidedly disappointing and nothing like as good as I know these speakers can and should sound. When placed with 3 to 6 feet in front of the rear wall, they sound great, but not good in free space.

 

[Zero000]

If those speakers are typical of electrostatics where half the energy produced by the panel is projected backwards, I'd challenge that claim! I had Martin Logan Expression 13A speakers placed in my room with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other (it's a very odd shaped room) and they were far from happy. Even with Anthem room correction doing its best to make the most of the room, the sound was decidedly disappointing and nothing like as good as I know these speakers can and should sound. When placed with 3 to 6 feet in front of the rear wall, they sound great, but not good in free space.

In my current room I have 35 ft of length to play with and I still place them at 40 inches.

There's no question however the Hi-Fi Deluxe Alsyvox setup worked with copious rear space, producing amazing sonics.

That said, I'd love to hear the Alsyvox much closer to a wall. I like a decent amount of fleshed out bass and if I place my Apogees and further forward than 40 inches it starts to deplete. Can't be doing with that.

TBH I did think they didn't have the bass balls of my speakers. Maybe closer to a wall would address that. But that said, the Alsyvox did sound more linear. I have a preference towards more bass than linear, though

 

[K3RMIT]

In my current room I have 35 ft of length to play with and I still place them at 40 inches.

There's no question however the Hi-Fi Deluxe Alsyvox setup worked with copious rear space, producing amazing sonics.

That said, I'd love to hear the Alsyvox much closer to a wall. I like a decent amount of fleshed out bass and if I place my Apogees and further forward than 40 inches it starts to deplete. Can't be doing with that.

TBH I did think they didn't have the bass balls of my speakers. Maybe closer to a wall would address that. But that said, the Alsyvox did sound more linear. I have a preference towards more bass than linear, though

Im
not sure they work line apogees. Every pic I see has them turned in. I’m not saying your wrong but think about that a bit. i agree on Your apps but this is known. have you tried apps turned in ?
im not sure all bidirectional drivers need t be close to front walls.

 

[gleeds]

Well, this is a fun thread........

I heard the Alsyvox speakers (I think they were the Botticelli's) with outboard crossovers driven by Vitus electronics at the Long Beach Show in 2021. I was impressed. They went quite low in the bass and had great dynamics and voluminous staging. I also thought they looked very elegant for such a big speaker.

Since Alsyvox is located in your home country service should not be a problem which is a huge box checker with a product like a full-range ribbon. Also, I'm guessing the factory people would help support the set-up in your home, again a critical factor. Taiko Audio uses them as their in-house reference and also distributes them in the Netherlands which is a significant industry endorsement as to their capability.
I heard the Classic Audio 1.3's some years ago with Atmosphere electronics. Nice sound but not IMO in the same league as far as resolution or realism goes.

We don't sell them, however, the best horn speakers I know of are the Destination Audio Vista's made in Budapest. They have a distributor in the US (Boston area) and one in the UK so perhaps a road trip would be worthwhile if you are not flying these days Also, check out the Wolf Van Langa field coil/ horns from Germany.

Most of all have fun with the journey - after all, having fun with music is what our hobby is all about!!!

 

[gleeds]

Thanks so much to everyone for all the comments. As always, I learn a lot with you.

@caesar you are my man!!! Buying both is the best solution and I will also have the best of both worlds or technologies!!! The only problem is money... (hahaha). If I could buy both, surely I would not be around here asking people which one to choose (hahaha).

Seriously, that’s what this is about. Trying to get the best option because I can’t buy both. I must remind you that I will also have to buy the rest of the equipment after deciding the speakers...

There are “classical“ problems associated with this two technologies (nothing is perfect):

It is said that horn speakers have a “nasal sound“ (in other words, the main differenciating characteristic of this technology could be, curiously, a “problem”). Bass also, many times, is not as powerful or deep as it needed and in most cases they are recommended independent subs. Dynamism seems to be the greatest virtue of horns. Jazz is a classical example of music that goes really well with horns.

Electrostatic, magneplanar or ribbon speakers, are incredible on the holographic experience but they have two big problems: they are not the most dynamics and the bass is (in general) poor. It is also said that this type of speakers have not a long durability (in opposition to box speakers for example) and also it´s a technology more likely to have issues and needs reparations more frequently. Any opinion?? If I could avoid any maintenance or at least that the manteinance or the “degradation” be minimum (I‘m not going to have easy access to technical assitance near home ) is a “plus“ that I have to take into account. Vocals seems the perfect music for panels.

I’m not going to lie you. Until very recently, panels were not an option to me. But a few days ago, I discovered Alsyvox ribbon-plannar speakers... Alsyvox speakers are advertised on their web with these qualities: “The transparency and imaging of the best planar speakers; The dynamics and low distortion of the best big horns; The tonal balance of the best monitors; The efficiency you need to use almost any amplifier; The authoritative bass of a big cone woofer”. That‘s a lot!!! If everything is true they are without doubt the best speakers on the market!!! (hahaha). After reading that my first thought was: “marketing stuff of the high-end...”. So I decide to investigate a little. And yes, @adyc Isaw the videos of Rapshody on youtube and a I also exchange some emails with him, and the comments, for his part, were really good and favorable. Dynamism and bass were really great. One of his first loudspeakers choices/recommendation right now... The only problem, in the comparison I’m proposing, is that Rapshody never heard any of the Classic Audio Loudspeakers.

Are the Alsyvox something special on the panels designs?? People is saying that they are far better than Maggies... That’s a lot... But most important, are the Alsyvox speakers worthy?? They are really expensive and as @Lampie519 said traditionlly “plannars are more affordable”. Anything justify on the Alsyvox such price???

Yesterday, I return to heard som recordings of the Rockport Cygnus... Good animals.... I’m really lost.... Hahaha

Thanks to everyone

 

[Zero000]

Im
not sure they work line apogees. Every pic I see has them turned in. I’m not saying your wrong but think about that a bit. i agree on Your apps but this is known. have you tried apps turned in ?
im not sure all bidirectional drivers need t be close to front walls.

An Apogee's bass driver has more push to the front wall than it does to the listener as the magnets are on the rear side of the speaker.

An Alsyvox has magnets on both sides and therefore doesn't have that issue. However, a large section of radiating area is obscured by the magnets at the front of the panel.

That's probably the salient issue.

Choose your compromises

 

[Choqueiro]

Well, this is a fun thread........

I heard the Alsyvox speakers (I think they were the Botticelli's) with outboard crossovers driven by Vitus electronics at the Long Beach Show in 2021. I was impressed. They went quite low in the bass and had great dynamics and voluminous staging. I also thought they looked very elegant for such a big speaker.

Since Alsyvox is located in your home country service should not be a problem which is a huge box checker with a product like a full-range ribbon. Also, I'm guessing the factory people would help support the set-up in your home, again a critical factor. Taiko Audio uses them as their in-house reference and also distributes them in the Netherlands which is a significant industry endorsement as to their capability.
I heard the Classic Audio 1.3's some years ago with Atmosphere electronics. Nice sound but not IMO in the same league as far as resolution or realism goes.

We don't sell them, however, the best horn speakers I know of are the Destination Audio Vista's made in Budapest. They have a distributor in the US (Boston area) and one in the UK so perhaps a road trip would be worthwhile if you are not flying these days Also, check out the Wolf Van Langa field coil/ horns from Germany.

Most of all have fun with the journey - after all, having fun with music is what our hobby is all about!!!

Hi gleeds. Nice to hear you. I must hear the Alsyvox. I hope I can go soon to Valencia and listen to them. They seem really good. The only problem is the price...To me, they are a little overpriced... My ears will judge.

It´s curious that you mentioned Destination Audio (if I´m not mistaken they are from Poland, not from Hungary). They seem to be something special. The big model that you have heard (the Vista) is a big guy of 245 kgs!!! I don´t know if I could live with such a big thing on my living room. My interest is on the "little brother" (the Nika) that is only 115 kg. each...

What can you said me about Destination Audio horns?? What about the sound?? Many people think that they don´t have the "classical problems" of the horns such as "horny sound". How would you describe the Destination Audio sound??

The most important quality to me right now is the hologrographic capacity, the inmmersive experience, speakers that dissapear.... Do you think that Destination Audio horns can do the trick, or as horns in general (directivity sound) they are not the best obtaining a deep soundstage??

 

[gleeds]

Apologies to Destination Audio and you Sir - Poland is correct!

I have heard the Nikka's properly set-up and they do indeed stage very well, Of course, immersing one in a big, expansive sound field is what a speaker like Alysvox excels at. That said, the Destinations are among the very few horn systems I have heard (including the Nikka) that create a realistic sound stage to go with big dynamics and natural tonality. They are, of course, efficient so there is any number of high-quality, relatively affordable, low-powered tube amplifiers to power them. Two different takes on the absolute sound to be sure! As you said, listen to both and let your ears decide!

 

[Fred Crane]

Hi gleeds. Nice to hear you. I must hear the Alsyvox. I hope I can go soon to Valencia and listen to them. They seem really good. The only problem is the price...To me, they are a little overpriced... My ears will judge.

It´s curious that you mentioned Destination Audio (if I´m not mistaken they are from Poland, not from Hungary). They seem to be something special. The big model that you have heard (the Vista) is a big guy of 245 kgs!!! I don´t know if I could live with such a big thing on my living room. My interest is on the "little brother" (the Nika) that is only 115 kg. each...

What can you said me about Destination Audio horns?? What about the sound?? Many people think that they don´t have the "classical problems" of the horns such as "horny sound". How would you describe the Destination Audio sound??

The most important quality to me right now is the hologrographic capacity, the inmmersive experience, speakers that dissapear.... Do you think that Destination Audio horns can do the trick, or as horns in general (directivity sound) they are not the best obtaining a deep soundstage??

This is a fun comparison...yin and yang in audio terms. The Alsyvox are the best speakers I know of, of their type. I suppose I could say the same about the Destination Horns. As I'm the US importer for Destination, I won't lace this post with 'better than' nonsense. I will say that i travelled far and wide listening to horn speakers before hearing and deciding upon the Destination horns. Coherence was often a stumbling block for horn speakers. These are very coherent and can be listened to in the nearfield if one desires. This relates to excellent time and phase and as a result excellent staging. Of course, this is enhanced depending upon the placement of the speakers, not unlike most speakers. (depth perception tends to increase when moved from the front wall.) Like the best of horns, they come to life even at low volumes, allowing for engaging listening even at very modest volumes. Essentially, they maintain all of the positive traits of horns, while dispossessing themselves of the typical bugaboos.

The other reason that Destination was a simple choice, is that their accompanying tube electronics are among the best I've encountered. When a solution exists at so high a level of enjoyment...and takes everything save server and turntable out of the equation, it is most compelling. Which isn't to say that one can't get magical results mixing and matching, but it's nice to have the option.

Good luck in your quest. I'm sure that whichever direction your adopt, you've some great listens in your future.

 

[PhP]

Hi gleeds. Nice to hear you. I must hear the Alsyvox. I hope I can go soon to Valencia and listen to them. They seem really good. The only problem is the price...To me, they are a little overpriced... My ears will judge.

It´s curious that you mentioned Destination Audio (if I´m not mistaken they are from Poland, not from Hungary). They seem to be something special. The big model that you have heard (the Vista) is a big guy of 245 kgs!!! I don´t know if I could live with such a big thing on my living room. My interest is on the "little brother" (the Nika) that is only 115 kg. each...

What can you said me about Destination Audio horns?? What about the sound?? Many people think that they don´t have the "classical problems" of the horns such as "horny sound". How would you describe the Destination Audio sound??

The most important quality to me right now is the hologrographic capacity, the inmmersive experience, speakers that dissapear.... Do you think that Destination Audio horns can do the trick, or as horns in general (directivity sound) they are not the best obtaining a deep soundstage??

Hello

you can go to Valencia or stop at PHPAUDIO in France. I distribute ALSYVOX here and also Switzerland and Luxemburg. They are the best speakers I know, not because I sale them, but I decide to sell them because they are the best and I stop selling other speakers.
Cheers,
Philippe

 

[PhP]

Hi gleeds. Nice to hear you. I must hear the Alsyvox. I hope I can go soon to Valencia and listen to them. They seem really good. The only problem is the price...To me, they are a little overpriced... My ears will judge.

It´s curious that you mentioned Destination Audio (if I´m not mistaken they are from Poland, not from Hungary). They seem to be something special. The big model that you have heard (the Vista) is a big guy of 245 kgs!!! I don´t know if I could live with such a big thing on my living room. My interest is on the "little brother" (the Nika) that is only 115 kg. each...

What can you said me about Destination Audio horns?? What about the sound?? Many people think that they don´t have the "classical problems" of the horns such as "horny sound". How would you describe the Destination Audio sound??

The most important quality to me right now is the hologrographic capacity, the inmmersive experience, speakers that dissapear.... Do you think that Destination Audio horns can do the trick, or as horns in general (directivity sound) they are not the best obtaining a deep soundstage??

Hello

No dynamic speakers can disappear, nor no horns. They cannot by design. 3D sound can only be obtained by dipoles or 360° drivers. QUAD demonstrated this 50 years ago and many brands after, say APOGEE and MBL. The issue with ALSYVOX, that they have both bass, low and powerful, high sensibility and high sound level possible (over 115 dB). With full ribbon, speed is first rate, distorsion ultra low due to a real push/pull on all the surface of the driver, all the drivers are made of the same material, so no difference in harmonic structure when frequency change. Another important thing, they do not need service during life, APOGEE needed to have their ribbon tension tuned from time.
Come at PHPAUDIO and listen for yourself.
Nice day
Philippe

 

[Choqueiro]

Hello

No dynamic speakers can disappear, nor no horns. They cannot by design. 3D sound can only be obtained by dipoles or 360° drivers. QUAD demonstrated this 50 years ago and many brands after, say APOGEE and MBL. The issue with ALSYVOX, that they have both bass, low and powerful, high sensibility and high sound level possible (over 115 dB). With full ribbon, speed is first rate, distorsion ultra low due to a real push/pull on all the surface of the driver, all the drivers are made of the same material, so no difference in harmonic structure when frequency change. Another important thing, they do not need service during life, APOGEE needed to have their ribbon tension tuned from time.
Come at PHPAUDIO and listen for yourself.
Nice day
Philippe

So in your opinion PhP only omnis can dissappear?? No holographic soundstage from planars, comes or horns??

 

[PhP]

So in your opinion PhP only omnis can dissappear?? No holographic soundstage from planars, comes or horns??

No, I said only omni and planars (dipoles). Some open baffle dynamic speaker can make a good soundstage but by design the wave at rear is different due to the emission surface that is not mirror of the front wave. Brain can hear "soundstage" due to difference in level and sound reflected sound, but it's not real mirror 3D sound emission.
However soundstage is also revealed by efficiency and detail retrieval of ambiant cues. Omni has moderate efficiency so it's the reason why planars that are at more than 93/94 dB and capable of micro ambiant cues retrieval offer a realistic soundstage, and for 2 listeners at the same time sometimes 3.