Re-imagining "Class A" Amplification
- Thread starter gleeds
- Start date
We are both named Greg so we should agree on something.
The Ultra 7 is my new favorite Von Schweikert speaker. I ranked it number 2. VAC has been my perennial best amp selection.
I gave number 1 to Genesis new Tribute to Arnie Nudell speaker. I agree wholeheartedly with the Tidal room. It was walk in the room good. It has been so for a while now.
The Ultra 7 is my new favorite Von Schweikert speaker. I ranked it number 2. VAC has been my perennial best amp selection.
I gave number 1 to Genesis new Tribute to Arnie Nudell speaker. I agree wholeheartedly with the Tidal room. It was walk in the room good. It has been so for a while now.
Thanks, Fred. Lampizator and Westminster Labs are making beautiful sounds together! Brothers from another mother?
The pairing should make for some dynamite sound paired with your Tobian loudspeakers in Tampa.
A big thank you to Fred and Gary and the folks at GT Audio for organising the show and the appearance of WestminsterLab gears possible.
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Some action shots of my pair of Westminster Labs REI monos. Look fwd to showing a very similar system at the Florida Audio show. (with a world premiere surprise). Like to thank my partners Gary Leeds and Fred Ainsley for their support and partnership during this joyous time of the year!
If you're like me and you love all the attributes of tube amps, but wouldn't mind if they could take up less room, run cooler, produce more power, better bass, faster, etc. Westminster Labs REI's check all those boxes. Yet like tubes, they sound very holographic, and have that (SET like) immediacy that really sucks me in. I'm biased but I do dare call these amps Unicorns. Don't take my word, hear them for yourself.
If you're like me and you love all the attributes of tube amps, but wouldn't mind if they could take up less room, run cooler, produce more power, better bass, faster, etc. Westminster Labs REI's check all those boxes. Yet like tubes, they sound very holographic, and have that (SET like) immediacy that really sucks me in. I'm biased but I do dare call these amps Unicorns. Don't take my word, hear them for yourself.
Merry Christmas and the setup certainly looks great! Here is another setup in German with the Quest and Rei with a pair of Acapella speakers. I think it is pretty neat!
And look at them tube amps tucked away on the left !
I just wanted to take a moment and share here our recent experiences with the Westminster Lab electronics.
Leif and I had the opportunity to spend a few days with our friend Russ aka Mobius and hear our ULTRA 9 loudspeakers on the Westminster Lab Quest preamplifier and a pair of the Rei Class A mono amplifiers. To say we were impressed would be a dramatic understatement. More on that later…
We quickly arranged with Gary of Hear This for an extensive in-factory audition of the Quest preamplifier and not two but four of their Rei Class A mono amplifiers.
To fully understand our impression of audio components, I thinks it’s important to explain how Leif and I approach them.
At our core, it certainly is all about the love of high-end audio and how a piece of gear can enhance that experience. And for us, it’s all about experiencing the purity of the recording. We want all the resolution we can get while maintaining the live musicality that was caught in the recording.
Or to state our design goal, we want to inversely decode what the microphone encoded. Anything that “steps” on the signal or “colors” it is ultimately distortion and must be avoided as much as technically possible.
As a manufacturer, concerned with marketing our designs, it’s also extremely critical that any component we might demonstrate with at a show is properly vetted long before it would publicly appear in a system of ours. We’ve learned the painful lesson that you never get a second chance at a first impression and as loudspeaker manufacturers, we get the lion’s share of the credit or blame for how many listers perceive a system at a show.
And lastly in regard to the marketing goals of Von Schweikert Audio going forward, it’s critical to Leif and I to find as many world-class solid state electronics to pair with our speakers at shows.
If you’ve followed VSA since Leif and I took over in 2015, we were very fortunate to have paired our loudspeakers with the excellent electronics produced by Valve Amplification Company as well as several other companies like Lampizator, Critical Mass System, MasterBuilt Audio, Kronos Audio, Aurender and Esoteric to name a few and as such, we’ve collectively earned more than 100 Best in Show awards from over 13 publications during this relatively short period.
Heavily biased, Leif and I know how great our loudspeakers sound with other electronics in part because we own them and use them in our design process to view our designs through the myriad of lenses these very different electronics provide. This process allows us to design the most neutral loudspeakers we can. It also allows us to find the most neutral and state-of-the-art electronics available.
So going forward, Leif and I plan to show with the finest solid-state electronics available in addition to showing with VAC to demonstrate the versatility and neutrality of our designs.
No more delay, here’s the system we used for the last few weeks to audition the Westminster Lab electronics.
System List
Aurender W20SE Server
Lampizator Horizon DAC (Tung-Sol KT170, Emission Labs 5U4GM, Westinghouse VT99)
Westminster Quest preamplifier
Wesminster Rei Class A monoblocks x4
ULTRA 7 loudspeakers with the CMS LS Footers
MasterBuilt Audio Ultra Line cables
What Leif and I are looking for from all audio component but specifically in amplification is speed, tonal accuracy, dynamics, low distortion, and a wide/deep soundstage with natural image scaling true to the recording. In short, we want o experience the live recording in any system of ours.
If the product fails to deliver in any one of these areas, it may still be a fun component that exceeds in other ways but ultimately, is not something we would put in front our loudspeakers in show environments where the speaker could ultimately be blamed for the shortcomings.
In each of these categories, Leif and I want to clearly state the Westminster Lab Quest and Rei meet or exceeds our very critical expectations. Not only did we listen to them on our ULTRA 7, we of course wanted to hear how they paired with our Endeavor Line of loudspeakers and of course, it was very impressive as one might expect. If it sounded great on the ULTRA 7, of course it sounded great on the Endeavor Special Edition. But it was very nice to experience how they perform across our line.
While I’m a critical listener, I’m not a critical writer as apparent in this post. So allow me to give the most important praise I can as a loudspeaker manufacturer Leif and I can and will confidently use these electronics to demonstrate our speakers.
Look, there’s obvious a subjective element to all this not to mention the importance of system synergy. But for whatever our opinions are worth, we endorse any components we’re willing to show our loudspeakers with. Please keep in mind, Leif and I are very competitive, and spend a great deal of time preparing these systems for shows. Our goal is simple, provide the best performance possible and earn as many of those highly sought after Best in Show awards we can.
Lastly and on a personal note, I must express my thanks to Gary Leads for his patience which allowed Leif and I the opportunity to play with these electronics for several weeks. Gary exemplifies the type of industry professional we choose to work with. We’ve talked many times and he care most about satisfying the specific needs of the people he works with… Leif and I included. Thanks Gary!
Leif and I had the opportunity to spend a few days with our friend Russ aka Mobius and hear our ULTRA 9 loudspeakers on the Westminster Lab Quest preamplifier and a pair of the Rei Class A mono amplifiers. To say we were impressed would be a dramatic understatement. More on that later…
We quickly arranged with Gary of Hear This for an extensive in-factory audition of the Quest preamplifier and not two but four of their Rei Class A mono amplifiers.
To fully understand our impression of audio components, I thinks it’s important to explain how Leif and I approach them.
At our core, it certainly is all about the love of high-end audio and how a piece of gear can enhance that experience. And for us, it’s all about experiencing the purity of the recording. We want all the resolution we can get while maintaining the live musicality that was caught in the recording.
Or to state our design goal, we want to inversely decode what the microphone encoded. Anything that “steps” on the signal or “colors” it is ultimately distortion and must be avoided as much as technically possible.
As a manufacturer, concerned with marketing our designs, it’s also extremely critical that any component we might demonstrate with at a show is properly vetted long before it would publicly appear in a system of ours. We’ve learned the painful lesson that you never get a second chance at a first impression and as loudspeaker manufacturers, we get the lion’s share of the credit or blame for how many listers perceive a system at a show.
And lastly in regard to the marketing goals of Von Schweikert Audio going forward, it’s critical to Leif and I to find as many world-class solid state electronics to pair with our speakers at shows.
If you’ve followed VSA since Leif and I took over in 2015, we were very fortunate to have paired our loudspeakers with the excellent electronics produced by Valve Amplification Company as well as several other companies like Lampizator, Critical Mass System, MasterBuilt Audio, Kronos Audio, Aurender and Esoteric to name a few and as such, we’ve collectively earned more than 100 Best in Show awards from over 13 publications during this relatively short period.
Heavily biased, Leif and I know how great our loudspeakers sound with other electronics in part because we own them and use them in our design process to view our designs through the myriad of lenses these very different electronics provide. This process allows us to design the most neutral loudspeakers we can. It also allows us to find the most neutral and state-of-the-art electronics available.
So going forward, Leif and I plan to show with the finest solid-state electronics available in addition to showing with VAC to demonstrate the versatility and neutrality of our designs.
No more delay, here’s the system we used for the last few weeks to audition the Westminster Lab electronics.
System List
Aurender W20SE Server
Lampizator Horizon DAC (Tung-Sol KT170, Emission Labs 5U4GM, Westinghouse VT99)
Westminster Quest preamplifier
Wesminster Rei Class A monoblocks x4
ULTRA 7 loudspeakers with the CMS LS Footers
MasterBuilt Audio Ultra Line cables
What Leif and I are looking for from all audio component but specifically in amplification is speed, tonal accuracy, dynamics, low distortion, and a wide/deep soundstage with natural image scaling true to the recording. In short, we want o experience the live recording in any system of ours.
If the product fails to deliver in any one of these areas, it may still be a fun component that exceeds in other ways but ultimately, is not something we would put in front our loudspeakers in show environments where the speaker could ultimately be blamed for the shortcomings.
In each of these categories, Leif and I want to clearly state the Westminster Lab Quest and Rei meet or exceeds our very critical expectations. Not only did we listen to them on our ULTRA 7, we of course wanted to hear how they paired with our Endeavor Line of loudspeakers and of course, it was very impressive as one might expect. If it sounded great on the ULTRA 7, of course it sounded great on the Endeavor Special Edition. But it was very nice to experience how they perform across our line.
While I’m a critical listener, I’m not a critical writer as apparent in this post. So allow me to give the most important praise I can as a loudspeaker manufacturer Leif and I can and will confidently use these electronics to demonstrate our speakers.
Look, there’s obvious a subjective element to all this not to mention the importance of system synergy. But for whatever our opinions are worth, we endorse any components we’re willing to show our loudspeakers with. Please keep in mind, Leif and I are very competitive, and spend a great deal of time preparing these systems for shows. Our goal is simple, provide the best performance possible and earn as many of those highly sought after Best in Show awards we can.
Lastly and on a personal note, I must express my thanks to Gary Leads for his patience which allowed Leif and I the opportunity to play with these electronics for several weeks. Gary exemplifies the type of industry professional we choose to work with. We’ve talked many times and he care most about satisfying the specific needs of the people he works with… Leif and I included. Thanks Gary!
Hey Rob, hey Fred, hi everybody,
Alexey here--I've met quite a few of you guys in person so it's great to finally connect on WBF as well. I can't think of a better occasion for my inaugural post than to express my amazement by the REI monos, as well as the Horizon DAC.
I had the pleasure of hearing Fred's REIs late last year, which were mated to a Horizon and a pair of Tobian 12FH speakers. The music server was a Taiko Extreme and most of the cabling was by FTA. I also brought along my reference Audio Note UK Baransu 300B monos to compare them to the REIs.
Fred's system is truly world class as a result of using exceptionally good, and very well matched components. It is very resolving, but extremely musical and liquid with no sign of digital glare or shrillness.
I came to this listening session with three golden-eared friends, and we alternated playing tracks from our playlists, first listening to REIs, then 300B monos, and then REIs again.
To share some background information, I am a lifelong tubehead, and starting a couple of years ago, a big Lampi fan. Despite my love for tubes, I don't like tubey sound--I want the most natural, balanced and uncolored sound possible that I can get with tube gear.
Instead of describing in detail how each track sounded, I will share some of the most important observations from our ~6 hour listening session:
1. The pickiest, most demanding of my friends did not believe that the REIs were not tube amps after we switched to the 300B monos. He is a 45/46/300B type of guy and has vast experience with SET amps.
2. Both Fred and I, independently from each other, noted that the REIs did not sound too differently from the Level 5 Audio Note monos. Both are well extended and detailed, yet very effortless and musical.
3. I heard none of the negatives that I have personally experienced with certain solid state amps mated to high-sensitivity horn speakers. I heard lots of detail and nuance, none of which was fatiguing.
4. The REIs did everything I would want an amp to do, and are so good that they were a rare component, like my current 300B amps, that I would be willing to keep without wanting to explore upgrade options. If I somehow sell my 300B monos, however, I would gladly use the REIs as my endgame amps and not look back.
Below are a few photos from that day.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Alexey! We definitely had ourselves a great session that day and as you mentioned, I wasn't expecting our respective reference amplifiers to have such a similar presentation on 98db efficiency horns.
You'll have to excuse the coffee table amp stands/clutter in the pictures everyone, lol. I did not have interconnects on hand that were long enough to connect to the amps if they were placed on the floor.
You'll have to excuse the coffee table amp stands/clutter in the pictures everyone, lol. I did not have interconnects on hand that were long enough to connect to the amps if they were placed on the floor.
As one of the earlier purchasers of the REIs in the US, it is interesting to see that my reaction to the excellence of these mono blocks is not an aberration. When people like Steve Williams, Fred Crane, Fred Ainsley and now Damon von Schweikert uniformly state that these mono blocks are outstanding, that really speaks volumes. These people have very critical ears, and they can differentiate very quickly which components truly stand out from the plethora of choices. I never thought I would have anything but tube gear, but here I am enjoying every minute of my listening to the solid-state REI mono blocks fed by the solid-state Tidal Audio Presencio preamplifier.
Agreed, but their striking appearance is far exceeded by their extraordinary performance. That's a WIN - WIN result.
Angus and I continue to appreciate all the positive comments. As many know, in addition to being an electronics designer, Angus is also an accomplished architect. The simplicity of his work reflects his belief that the shortest circuit path, as well as structural and industrial design contribute to the performance and pride of ownership of Westminster owners.
We currently have two NA listening locations in Southern California and New York and will add more soon. We are happy to arrange in-home demos for those out of range and with more than a passing curiosity about what Westminster can do in your system. If you are going to be at the Florida show in February, Axpona in April, or The Show in California in June, you are most welcome to visit our demo suites for a look and listen.
We currently have two NA listening locations in Southern California and New York and will add more soon. We are happy to arrange in-home demos for those out of range and with more than a passing curiosity about what Westminster can do in your system. If you are going to be at the Florida show in February, Axpona in April, or The Show in California in June, you are most welcome to visit our demo suites for a look and listen.
Three WBF members, including me, recently listened to the Westminster monoblocks and preamp on Fyne F1-12 speakers, with the digital source being MSB. While opinions about the WML electronics varied somewhat among the three of us, I think it is accurate to say that none of us experienced the rapture expressed here by others who have posted thus far. Did we hear the WML "pseudo" Class A monoblocks as credible and essentially good? Yes. World-beater or standard-setting? Not quite.
The first thing to note is that we first listened to the amps in combination with the WML preamp. That was not a convincing sound and we were inclined to dismiss the amp, but I suggested we listen to the amps independent of the companion preamp and revert to host system's Music First TVC. Immediately, we got far more musically-convincing results from the amps. The WML preamp was doing no favors to the musical authenticity the amps are capable of and I could not recommend it for anyone. We put it aside for the duration of the audition. Isolated from the companion preamp, the WML monoblocks became far more musically credible, avoiding the common solid state Class A problem of somewhat hooded, sanded-off sound. The amps were more objective and open than many competing Class A designs. But it's still a standoffish sound that is not intimate and involving to expectations. Good as the amps were, they don't quite deliver "the whole note." In singers, they deliver the throat with clarity, but not the full pipe of the human body. Instruments are victims of some truncation of resonance, relative to what I expect from ~$30,000 amplification. The standards applied here are discriminating and could be seen as unfair if it were a lesser amp, but my general sense was that the WML monoblocks sounded harmonically incomplete for this level. The group (and the potential buyer) were not convinced of keeping the amps and I particularly found the sound disappointing relative to the buildup. However, if you did not know the price and imagined these monoblocks costing less, they could be a buy. The build quality and workmanship are beyond reproach. In the total realm of amplification WML is in the good quadrant, no doubt. But the hosannas written about it here are not representative of what we/I heard.
Solid state Class A amps have held out promise for decades but very few have lived up to the theoretical musical potential. We now have a Gryphon Essence in front of us to see if it can shatter the letdown of Class A amps that have come before it. We (certainly I) will have a verdict soon enough on that. On the Fyne speakers, a prior trial was with the Nagra Classic Amp, which is solid state with substantial Class A output from its 100/100w rating. Aside from it producing a "slightly" smaller soundstage than the WML and some other trialed amps, it was for me easily more musically-convincing and tonally more authentic than the WML. So there are clearly some interesting options in the $20K - $30K power amp class today and I welcome Westminster's contribution. I'd like at some point to try the WML monoblocks on the new Zu Definition 6 and put them up against my Absolare 845 Altius PSET monoblocks to see if a speaker change alters the outcome.
Phil
The first thing to note is that we first listened to the amps in combination with the WML preamp. That was not a convincing sound and we were inclined to dismiss the amp, but I suggested we listen to the amps independent of the companion preamp and revert to host system's Music First TVC. Immediately, we got far more musically-convincing results from the amps. The WML preamp was doing no favors to the musical authenticity the amps are capable of and I could not recommend it for anyone. We put it aside for the duration of the audition. Isolated from the companion preamp, the WML monoblocks became far more musically credible, avoiding the common solid state Class A problem of somewhat hooded, sanded-off sound. The amps were more objective and open than many competing Class A designs. But it's still a standoffish sound that is not intimate and involving to expectations. Good as the amps were, they don't quite deliver "the whole note." In singers, they deliver the throat with clarity, but not the full pipe of the human body. Instruments are victims of some truncation of resonance, relative to what I expect from ~$30,000 amplification. The standards applied here are discriminating and could be seen as unfair if it were a lesser amp, but my general sense was that the WML monoblocks sounded harmonically incomplete for this level. The group (and the potential buyer) were not convinced of keeping the amps and I particularly found the sound disappointing relative to the buildup. However, if you did not know the price and imagined these monoblocks costing less, they could be a buy. The build quality and workmanship are beyond reproach. In the total realm of amplification WML is in the good quadrant, no doubt. But the hosannas written about it here are not representative of what we/I heard.
Solid state Class A amps have held out promise for decades but very few have lived up to the theoretical musical potential. We now have a Gryphon Essence in front of us to see if it can shatter the letdown of Class A amps that have come before it. We (certainly I) will have a verdict soon enough on that. On the Fyne speakers, a prior trial was with the Nagra Classic Amp, which is solid state with substantial Class A output from its 100/100w rating. Aside from it producing a "slightly" smaller soundstage than the WML and some other trialed amps, it was for me easily more musically-convincing and tonally more authentic than the WML. So there are clearly some interesting options in the $20K - $30K power amp class today and I welcome Westminster's contribution. I'd like at some point to try the WML monoblocks on the new Zu Definition 6 and put them up against my Absolare 845 Altius PSET monoblocks to see if a speaker change alters the outcome.
Phil
Phil, all comments are welcome and we respect yours. That's what makes horse races!
From an owner of the marvelous single-ended Absolare monoblocks your observations are about what I would expect, bearing mind mind the WML was never intended to sound like an SE tube amplifier or for that matter a typical warmish Class A SS design.No doubt the Nagra's are very fine amplifiers, as is the Gryphon just different.
I feel it's important to note in the system under discussion the speaker cables, interconnects and power cords used were very modest, especially for a system fronted by an MSB Reference DAC. The interested party and I discussed this on a few occasions. It was decided to leave the cables status quo since this was the baseline from which he auditioned all other amplifiers under consideration prior to the WML.
Perhaps one day we will get to meet in person and do that comparison with the Absolare and Zu-6.
From an owner of the marvelous single-ended Absolare monoblocks your observations are about what I would expect, bearing mind mind the WML was never intended to sound like an SE tube amplifier or for that matter a typical warmish Class A SS design.No doubt the Nagra's are very fine amplifiers, as is the Gryphon just different.
I feel it's important to note in the system under discussion the speaker cables, interconnects and power cords used were very modest, especially for a system fronted by an MSB Reference DAC. The interested party and I discussed this on a few occasions. It was decided to leave the cables status quo since this was the baseline from which he auditioned all other amplifiers under consideration prior to the WML.
Perhaps one day we will get to meet in person and do that comparison with the Absolare and Zu-6
.Understand that I don't have only Absolare amps and have plenty of experience with tube and solid state amp topologies over more than 50 years in hifi. I've never gravitated to "warmish" amplification, tube or solid state, nor do I think amplifiers should be designed to "sound like an SE tube amplifier..." An amplifier should be designed to control a speaker yielding a musically-convincing sound, regardless of the amplifying device and topology chosen. I didn't write that the WML is insufficiently "warm," nor that it sounded cold, sterile or any of the other tube v. transistor divides. On the Fyne F1-12, it just stopped short of full tonal authenticity and transparency. But on Fyne the amp has to drive a crossover. It might perform and sound differently driving a crossoverless Zu.Phil, all comments are welcome and we respect yours. That's what makes horse races!
From an owner of the marvelous single-ended Absolare monoblocks your observations are about what I would expect, bearing mind mind the WML was never intended to sound like an SE tube amplifier or for that matter a typical warmish Class A SS design.No doubt the Nagra's are very fine amplifiers, as is the Gryphon just different.
I feel it's important to note in the system under discussion the speaker cables, interconnects and power cords used were very modest, especially for a system fronted by an MSB Reference DAC. The interested party and I discussed this on a few occasions. It was decided to leave the cables status quo since this was the baseline from which he auditioned all other amplifiers under consideration prior to the WML.
Perhaps one day we will get to meet in person and do that comparison with the Absolare and Zu-6
The Absolare Altius monoblocks with Elrog 845s do not have the sound people often associate with traditional SET. On the contrary they are among the most objective amps I've ever heard and are explosively dynamic, which possibly might be somewhat less so with other 845 glass substituted. I don''t know what the Absolare loses in its two lesser versions, as I haven't heard those with Elrog installed. The Nagra Classic Amp is similarly open and objective in stereo, though its soundstaging presents with a little less spatial scale. That same amp installed as a bridged pair was clearly not as convincing. We'll see about the Gryphon, though great progress with burn-in was reported by another listener yesterday. Whatever it turns out to be, "warm" was not what we heard at installation.
The cables issue in the system referenced is a distraction, since with no change of cables some other amps have delivered a more complete sound than the WML, albeit other, less essential characteristics were sometimes lacking. Cables in a hifi system are influential and problematic. I think of cables -- all of them -- as "fixed parametric equalizers" wherein the struggle is to find the most neutral and transparent. There is very little correlation between price and neutrality in cables, with some of the worst offenders I've heard being among the most expensive, and many cheapies are detrimental too. At what immodest level does an interconnect from an MSB Reference DAC have to be to be considered appropriate? I don't have an immodesty-modesty scale to answer that. But when the system context for power amps auditioned remains a constant, we can recognize clear differences between them, in the context of the given system. If every amp requires cable optimization specific to it for its maker to consider the audition legitimate, practical comparisons over time become impractical.
The WML amp is the result of a vision-driven, clever design made so for very good practical reasons. It presents a musically-credible voice in the ~$30,000 power amp category but it has a voice nevertheless. While I did not hear the WML as convincing in its appeal as other commentary here suggests, I fully accept that the amp should be considered in its price bracket and that some people might consider what I find missing to be a plus in a different system.
Next time you visit the Fyne owner, Gary, I'm just 15 minutes further.
Phil
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