Rockport Lyra

amadeus

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Very interesting...do you believe in the principle of having custom subs designed to go with them to make them all-out flagship speakers?

I have never heard (custom)Subs whit Lyra s so i don t know?
 

amadeus

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I have never heard (custom)Subs whit Lyra s so i don t know?
Also i must say why some will pay 190K$ for a speaker thats shy on Bass and will make research and extra cost to correct the Bass performance by custom designing Subs.....
I owned almost all Rockport Speakers in the past and i really believe Lyra is over priced.
 

LL21

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I have never heard (custom)Subs whit Lyra s so i don t know?
Also i must say why some will pay 190K$ for a speaker thats shy on Bass and will make research and extra cost to correct the Bass performance by custom designing Subs.....
I owned almost all Rockport Speakers in the past and i really believe Lyra is over priced.
Well...I think the idea is to go towards 4-tower speakers or speakers (like WAMM and XVX which have the ability but not obligation to go with matching subs) where it is clear that to deliver that level of limitless scale, dynamics and power are at another level.

For example, the REL 6 pack (6 massive subs in 2 towers of 3 each) ...is apparently transformational even to the mighty Arrakis according to Arnie who owns them...
 

musicfirst1

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I have never heard (custom)Subs whit Lyra s so i don t know?
Also i must say why some will pay 190K$ for a speaker thats shy on Bass and will make research and extra cost to correct the Bass performance by custom designing Subs.....
I owned almost all Rockport Speakers in the past and i really believe Lyra is over priced.
I think the point here is that virtually all "full range" speakers can benefit from properly designed and integrated separate subs. This is by no means a denigration of the bass capabilities of the Lyra, nor any other full range main speakers for that matter.

I had the opportunity to hear the Lyras with and without active custom subs. The subs improved the bottom octave and much more.
This is by no means a reflection on the bottom 1-2 octave performance of the Lyras, rather it is a testament to the efficacy of well thought out subwoofer design and setup, providing the room can accommodate.
 

LL21

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I think the point here is that virtually all "full range" speakers can benefit from properly designed and integrated separate subs. This is by no means a denigration of the bass capabilities of the Lyra, nor any other full range main speakers for that matter.

I had the opportunity to hear the Lyras with and without active custom subs. The subs improved the bottom octave and much more.
This is by no means a reflection on the bottom 1-2 octave performance of the Lyras, rather it is a testament to the efficacy of well thought out subwoofer design and setup, providing the room can accommodate.
WOW...you have heard the Lyras with custom subs! That is fantastic news. A few questions if I may:

1. What subs were they?
2. Can you describe the differences a bit more?
3. In the end, how much scale did the combination provide you in comparison with other major flagship speakers (big Wilsons, Focals, huge panels)...did the Lyra + Sub end up (scale wise) equalling a big set of speakers...or did you feel like it was a true "4-Tower Speaker System" in scale...so more like an XLF + Dual Thors, or Gryphon Pendragon, etc?

Thanks for any insights!!!
 

rsorren1

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John, congratulations on purchasing Lyra! Altair II is a great speaker but I find Rockport's unique cabinet structure used in the Lyra along with the wave guide design of the tweeter in Lyra and other models a real step up in realism and resolution from prior designs. All the best!
 

jfrech

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John, congratulations on purchasing Lyra! Altair II is a great speaker but I find Rockport's unique cabinet structure used in the Lyra along with the wave guide design of the tweeter in Lyra and other models a real step up in realism and resolution from prior designs. All the best!
Ralph thanks ! Arnie and yourself are welcome to stop by anytime !
 

Reference Analog

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Nice John, I have seen pictures many times throughout the years of your system. Excellent. I picked up Rockport around a year ago. (Oklahoma dealer) no better music lover sound than Rockport as far as I am concerned. I think we are still a year or so from grabbing a pair of Lyra’s but are certainly on our lust list. Congrats. In the meantime have a pair of no.25’s to go with our Aviors :)
 
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amadeus

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I think the point here is that virtually all "full range" speakers can benefit from properly designed and integrated separate subs. This is by no means a denigration of the bass capabilities of the Lyra, nor any other full range main speakers for that matter.

I had the opportunity to hear the Lyras with and without active custom subs. The subs improved the bottom octave and much more.
This is by no means a reflection on the bottom 1-2 octave performance of the Lyras, rather it is a testament to the efficacy of well thought out subwoofer design and setup, providing the room can accommodate.

Its quite possible that Lyra + subs when integrated right will sound better my point is that when a speakers cost 190k$ it used to have a very good and powerful Bass already whit out adding subs.
 

sbo6

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Congrats on the new speakers! WRT subs any speaker will benefit in almost any room if integrated properly, not only to augment low frequencies but more importantly to smooth out room modes which we all have. Ideally rolling off your speakers' woofers to avoid overlapping speakers and subs' low frequencies not only reduces the load on the amps but also the demand on your woofers (= lower distortion). There are several of us in and around Austin that have subs integrated with full range speakers if you are curious to hear the difference. Once you hear it done right, it's hard to go without subs.
 
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XV-1

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Congrats - that is awesome. truly beautiful speaker. look forward to the pics. in the meanwhile - a little taste :cool:




 

andromedaaudio

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Although i m sure the Lyra costs a lot to make with the double cabinet design with anti resonance compound in between the 2 shells .
A SOTA company design should be flat in the 20 -50 Hz region also .
Subs are never optimal , i never heard proper integration yet and i have heard wilson with subs magico with subs and Kharma with subs .
Although what the Lyra does it probably does better then the previous model given the same freq range ( a bit cleaner sound and MTM arrangement /different dispersion ).
But i suspect J frech s previous model will be better in the low freq with the 15 incher.( well made large woofers have a lower Fs to work with)
But we will hear that comparison later, look forward to it

Congrats on the purchase as its definitively a well made design (although i never have heard a rockport yet, lol )
 
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LL21

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Although i m sure the Lyra costs a lot to make with the double cabinet design with anti resonance compound in between the 2 shells .
A SOTA company design should be flat in the 20 -50 Hz region also .
Subs are never optimal , i never heard proper integration yet and i have heard wilson with subs magico with subs and Kharma with subs .
Although what the Lyra does it probably does better then the previous model given the same freq range ( a bit cleaner sound and MTM arrangement /different dispersion ).
But i suspect J frech s previous model will be better in the low freq with the 15 incher.( well made large woofers have a lower Fs to work with)
But we will hear that comparison later, look forward to it

Congrats on the purchase as its definitively a well made design (although i never have heard a rockport yet, lol )
Points well made. I think the Lyra technically does spec out at 20hz - 30khz at 3db+/- or something. Having lived with Velodyne subs for 25+ years...the single most consistent feature in the system going back to 1995...I also agree that sub integration is difficult to get right. However, for me, I would take the upsides of what 'reasonably good to very good' integration gives me vs what not having it takes away.

Specifically, I have heard a few flat-to-20hz speakers (Wilson XLF, Rockport Arrakis, Focal Grand Utopia EM) and tested it with deep bass tracks. I have still wanted to hear each and all of them with Subs. The big speakers I have heard with sub towers include Genesis 1 which has 2 x 7.5' tall bass towers with 6? x 12" woofers per side, as well as the Tidal Sunray with its matching sub towers. These 4-tower speakers definitely created greater foundation, presence than the standalone 'reference' speakers. And when I add the Velodyne to the Wilsons some element of that greater foundation, sense of venue, sense of place is replicated better with it on, than with it off, where it snaps back to a 3D image in visual/audial way but no longer in a truly physical, full-body sense. The venue no longer seems to envelope the way BEING in a room obviously does.

Is it a trade off? Without doubt. But for me, I value those upsides more than the downsides of imperfect integration.
 
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andromedaaudio

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I never heard your system Lloyd and i assume your a good system builder going by your posts .
And i wont mention the dealer where i heard the issues .
But im not talking small differences here, but totally unlistenable timing issues / efficiency differences causing tonal anomalies despite a huge price .
Complete package designed speaker / (sub ) woofer tower combos have a better change to get it right because they should be designed as a system , rather then 2 individual products.

Although going not as deep in the bass as the Altair 2 (with more low bass membrane surface / authority ) , the Lyra is probably faster with the 2 smaller woofers .
 
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sbo6

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Points well made. I think the Lyra technically does spec out at 20hz - 30khz at 3db+/- or something. Having lived with Velodyne subs for 25+ years...the single most consistent feature in the system going back to 1995...I also agree that sub integration is difficult to get right. However, for me, I would take the upsides of what 'reasonably good to very good' integration gives me vs what not having it takes away.
The problem is - our ears don't hear a flat frequency response so a speaker delivering, for example a flat response to 20Hz means the lower frequencies will not sound as loud as low - mids, mids, etc. So flat for a speaker does not = flat to what to our listening mechanism.

I also agree, I'll take well (but not perfect) integration of subs versus no subs primarily for the reason above - your flat speakers aren't flat perceived by your ears and brain, and as such aren't actually full range unless they're designed or have adjustability (and the capability) to augment the low frequencies to match Fletcher Munson or Sean Olive (pick your curve).
 
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andromedaaudio

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The problem is - our ears don't hear a flat frequency response so a speaker delivering, for example a flat response to 20Hz means the lower frequencies will not sound as loud as low - mids, mids, etc. So flat for a speaker does not = flat to what to our listening mechanism.

I also agree, I'll take well (but not perfect) integration of subs versus no subs primarily for the reason above - your flat speakers aren't flat perceived by your ears and brain, and as such aren't actually full range unless they're designed or have adjustability (and the capability) to augment the low frequencies to match Fletcher Munson or Sean Olive (pick your curve).
As far as i know the recording engineer would/ should have played a large part in that already with all his freq ./loudness adjustment knobs/ sound mixing panel and microphone placement/distance
He knows what he wants on the recording Tape / digital file /direct to disc LP what ever to sound good on an average consumer loudspeaker system
I have measured and spent an enormous amount of time listening regarding that issue( my system page )
Go back and look also at the stereophile measurements , Flat speakers correspond with good tonal balance in general .

This sean olive graph is for headphones a s far as i can see , likely a different matter due to a sealed / near placement to the eardrums with a very small membrane compared to normal speakers
Fletcher munson is from 1933 are his tools accurate ??
I can tell you a LS with a 20-25 db designed deviation curve to correct for the Fletcher munson graph will sound horribly inaccurate in real listening , and i m sure you re Vivid speakers arent designed like that .

Ps The biggest problem in my view is that low freq.are not that easy to measure in general , so there is a lot of fraud going on .
Speaker specs that are far to optimistic and dont correspond much with reality .
 

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sbo6

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As far as i know the recording engineer would/ should have played a large part in that already with all his freq . adjustment knobs/ sound panel and microphone placement/distance
He knows what he wants on the recording , CD / digi file / LP what ever to sound good on an average consumer loudspeaker system
I have measured and spent an enormous amount of time listening regarding that issue( my system page )
Go back and look also at the stereophile measurements , Flat speakers correspond with good tonal balance in general .

This sean olive graph is for headphones a s far as i can see , likely a different matter due to a sealed / near placement to the eardrums with a very small membrane compared to normal speakers
Fletcher munson is from 1933 are his tools accurate ??
I can tell you a LS with a 20-25 db designed deviation curve to correct for the Fletcher munson graph will sound horribly inaccurate in real listening , and i m sure you re Vivid speakers arent designed like that .

Ps The biggest problem in my view is that low freq.are not that easy to measure in general , so there is a lot of fraud going on .
Speaker specs that are far to optimistic and dont correspond much with reality .
Breaking this down:
- You're making as assumption based on a person's (the recording engineer's) personal preference played back and mastered on the studio system and / or headphones. Evidence based on thousands of recordings show bass volume relative to other frequencies spans extremely abundant to non - existent. And as someone who's been in studios and worked with mastering (at the amateur level) I can tell you first hand that it's completely subjective. And many (most) studio systems are set up pretty awful, btw.

- WRT Stereophile measurements and your assumption that, "Flat speakers correspond with good tonal balance in general" I agree from 80Hz and above. Below all bets are off in terms of room interaction (another reason why you need subs) and true full range capabilities. You can only compensate so much with tools IMO.

- WRT curves irrespective of who or when the results were assessed and presented in graphical form they are all a variation on a theme - the ear / brain does not hear all frequencies at the same volume across the human auditory spectrum. And low frequencies are heard attenuated versus mid and mid is slightly attenuated versus high frequencies. Managing high frequencies is easier via toe - in, speaker height (vs ear height) adjusting, room treatment, etc. Low frequency especially extreme low frequency needs to be augmented via subs with the vast majority of speakers.

- WRT your biggest problem, I'm not sure it's so much of a problem as much as a Marketing ploy coupled with the reality that each in room response will be quite different and room gain sometimes works in speaker mfr.'s favor (I call it the Fake Bass effect).
 
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andromedaaudio

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Low frequency especially extreme low frequency needs to be augmented via subs with the vast majority of speakers.

- WRT your biggest problem
I dont have a problem , you have as you are the one using subs lol .

My XPE speakers dont need subs.
And if there is one thing people like about them its seamless bass reproduction .
My problem is : i dont market them .

Brg hj
 
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andromedaaudio

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This is a in room measurement graph , you see a lot of large oscillations due to room influence under 300 -400 hz .
It has a peak just at 20 hz .
The other graph is with a slightly different measurement mic position and you can see the difference already , a lot of loudspeaker companies dont like these in room response graphs ( incl bass ) as it looks nasty.
Some rather draw a " average FR response line " themselves instead of the lumps and bumps under 300 Hz

1615455873339.png XPE graph.jpg
 
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sbo6

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This is a in room measurement graph , you see a lot of large oscillations due to room influence under 300 -400 hz .
It has a peak just at 20 hz .
The other graph is with a slightly different measurement mic position and you can see the difference already , a lot of loudspeaker companies dont like these in room response graphs ( incl bass ) as it looks nasty.
Some rather draw a " average FR response line " themselves instead of the lumps and bumps under 300 Hz

View attachment 75815 View attachment 75816
Your two provided graphs are evidence why your speakers and virtually all speakers and rooms need subs.
 
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