Room Acoustics

[NC Lee]

As one trying to manage my room acoustics, learning it is an art which is not always intuitive or consistent, I found this article interesting.
A point: My Magico speakers sit on plush carpet. I put them on a stone plate which tightened the bass considerably. However, I lost the elusive in- your- room presence that separates good and excellent sound reproduction. How can that be..... ?

The $550 Million Question: How Does David Geffen Hall Sound?

When the New York Philharmonic English horn player and oboist Ryan Roberts performs at the renovated David Geffen Hall these

dnyuz.com

 

[tmallin]

Tightened bass usually means that you are now hearing vibrational harmonics from cabinet/floor resonances which tend to add "edge" to the sound far above the bass. Also, bass travels faster through the floor than through the air so additional coupling of the speaker to the floor may also add a sense of physical punch as an initial bass transient. The stone plate atop the carpet may be acting in similar ways. I have long eschewed spiking speakers to the floor for these reasons, preferring soft mounts which "float" the speakers atop the carpet. The same goes for speaker/stand interfaces with stand-mounted speakers. Softer mounts sound better overall, to my ears.

 

[Hear Here]

As one trying to manage my room acoustics, learning it is an art which is not always intuitive or consistent, I found this article interesting.
A point: My Magico speakers sit on plush carpet. I put them on a stone plate which tightened the bass considerably. However, I lost the elusive in- your- room presence that separates good and excellent sound reproduction. How can that be..... ?

The $550 Million Question: How Does David Geffen Hall Sound?

When the New York Philharmonic English horn player and oboist Ryan Roberts performs at the renovated David Geffen Hall these

dnyuz.com

Presumably you had used spikes that pierce the carpet before introducing the slab. What floor construction is the carpet laid on?

I think I'd consider this:

1. Fix spikes to the underside of the stone slab so it is well grounded onto the floor - particularly if timber on concrete or other solid base
2. Fit IsoAcoustic Gaia isolation feet to your speakers.

I found that Gaias onto my solid floor improved the bass considerably - it was more detailed and with greater clarity. Instruments could much more easily be identified. One could add Gaia Carpet Discs in place of the stone slab, though this would appear to rather defeat the object, so keeping the slab to provide a firm base makes sense.

 

[AnonymousAudiophile]

As one trying to manage my room acoustics, learning it is an art which is not always intuitive or consistent, I found this article interesting.
A point: My Magico speakers sit on plush carpet. I put them on a stone plate which tightened the bass considerably. However, I lost the elusive in- your- room presence that separates good and excellent sound reproduction. How can that be..... ?

The $550 Million Question: How Does David Geffen Hall Sound?

When the New York Philharmonic English horn player and oboist Ryan Roberts performs at the renovated David Geffen Hall these

dnyuz.com

Agree with above posters that Gaias, or, as in my case, Townshend Podiums, are ideal for decoupling speakers from the room and provide instant benefits.

 

[mtemur]

A point: My Magico speakers sit on plush carpet.

That’s wrong.

I put them on a stone plate which tightened the bass considerably

That’s also wrong whatever the outcome is.

The right thing to do is; speakers on spikes and spike bases sitting directly over the floor. That’s how it should be. Wooden floor is better than concrete but either way speaker should be sitting directly over the floor. No matter what anybody else say this is how it should be. Anyone objecting this is wrong and doing wrong. I’m certain about that. Alternately you can try gabon ebony (if you can find real ebony) discs under the spike bases. Or Harmonix feet.

 

[Hear Here]

The right thing to do is; speakers on spikes and spike bases sitting directly over the floor. That’s how it should be. Wooden floor is better than concrete but either way speaker should be sitting directly over the floor. No matter what anybody else say this is how it should be. Anyone objecting this is wrong and doing wrong. I’m certain about that. Alternately you can try gabon ebony (if you can find real ebony) discs under the spike bases. Or Harmonix feet.

20 or 30 years ago, most would agree with you, but the benefits of isolation are now appreciated and techie feet such as Gaias and others are often more effective than spikes. If you doubt this, it is easy enough to demonstrate. Get some feet that suit your speakers (weight is the most important factor) and fit them to your speakers. Depending on the floor, you are likely to notice an improvement in the bass detail and clarity. Don't miss out on this easy upgrade - it may move your speakers into a virtual upgrade position at a much lower cost that a true upgrade.

I'm the last person to go down the snake-oil route, but there are genuine benefits under most circumstances of isolation.

 

[Gregm]

You will get many responses, some conflicting. I recommend you check out Jesko (or something) who is a subject professional. Generally speaking absorbing bass is a very difficult and space-consuming task. Decoupling your speakers from a suspended wooden floor is a place to start -- but it doesn't address room modes (where the bass either cancels or resonated i.e. sounds very powerful). Additionally, you can use subwoofers, NOT to enhance the bass but to soften the effects of modes in your room.
Good luck, the results are very much worth the effort!

 

[DennisH]

Tightened bass usually means that you are now hearing vibrational harmonics from cabinet/floor resonances which tend to add "edge" to the sound far above the bass. Also, bass travels faster through the floor than through the air so additional coupling of the speaker to the floor may also add a sense of physical punch as an initial bass transient. The stone plate atop the carpet may be acting in similar ways. I have long eschewed spiking speakers to the floor for these reasons, preferring soft mounts which "float" the speakers atop the carpet. The same goes for speaker/stand interfaces with stand-mounted speakers. Softer mounts sound better overall, to my ears.

I have floor standing speakers on spikes/discs atop a tile floor with an area rug between the speakers and listening position. Are spikes best for my speakers? Thanks!

 

[mtemur]

20 or 30 years ago, most would agree with you, but the benefits of isolation are now appreciated and techie feet such as Gaias and others are often more effective than spikes. If you doubt this, it is easy enough to demonstrate. Get some feet that suit your speakers (weight is the most important factor) and fit them to your speakers. Depending on the floor, you are likely to notice an improvement in the bass detail and clarity. Don't miss out on this easy upgrade - it may move your speakers into a virtual upgrade position at a much lower cost that a true upgrade.

I'm the last person to go down the snake-oil route, but there are genuine benefits under most circumstances of isolation.

Your response aligns with what I expected, but I believe Gaia or any elastomer-fitted feet should be avoided, not praised. That’s the opposite of my point. My first recommendation is to remove the carpet under your speakers. You should do that primarily. I have directly compared Gaias with regular spikes, and the results were disappointing—bloated bass and recessed mids, caused by the springy nature of elastomers that allow the speaker cabinet to move. Ideally, the speaker cabinet should remain stationary to avoid interfering with driver movement. As I mentioned in my previous post, this approach is essential. I apologize if I come across as strict, but speaker manufacturers aren’t making a mistake by recommending spikes on hard surfaces like wood or concrete. There’s a clear reason for using spikes and avoiding elastomers. Please refer to my earlier post, as that’s the correct approach. I’m sorry, but anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken.

 

[Gregm]

... speaker manufacturers aren’t making a mistake by recommending spikes on hard surfaces like wood or concrete.

Sure, but if you couple your speakers to a suspended wooden floor you'll have the whole thing resonating together -- especially if your speakers are ported (which many are).

 

[Hear Here]

Your response aligns with what I expected, but I believe Gaia or any elastomer-fitted feet should be avoided, not praised. That’s the opposite of my point. My first recommendation is to remove the carpet under your speakers. You should do that primarily. I have directly compared Gaias with regular spikes, and the results were disappointing—bloated bass and recessed mids, caused by the springy nature of elastomers that allow the speaker cabinet to move. Ideally, the speaker cabinet should remain stationary to avoid interfering with driver movement. As I mentioned in my previous post, this approach is essential. I apologize if I come across as strict, but speaker manufacturers aren’t making a mistake by recommending spikes on hard surfaces like wood or concrete. There’s a clear reason for using spikes and avoiding elastomers. Please refer to my earlier post, as that’s the correct approach. I’m sorry, but anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken.

Your reply seems to suggest that you know absolutely what is best for everyone. Please don't be so dogmatic. Opinions and experiences vary with the choice of speakers, floor material, preferred sound delivery and other considerations. If you say "In my experience, spikes offer a better sound, because ...", fair enough. But your claim that everyone who uses isolation and finds this better than spikes is misguided, is just unhelpful - and inaccurate.

You say that isolation leads to "bloated bass" is again wrong, certainly as a generalisation. When I fitted Gaia Is to my heavy speakers, the bass, far from becoming bloated, because appreciably more defined and clearer to the extent that individual bass instruments were more easily identifiable - a difficult thing to achieve in the bass range. Bass volume was not changed but it was clearer and cleaner - no doubt about that. As I said earlier, individual circumstances will have a big influence, so I'm not saying that all speaker systems will benefit from isolation, but I expect that most big speakers will do so. Maybe you have small lightweight speakers that sound better on spikes (I can imagine that may well be the case), but that doesn't mean every speaker will benefit from spikes.

Happy to share experiences but let's none of us say that everyone else is wrong!

 

[Tonescout]

My experience is like everyone else here I am sure, empirically different and nuanced.

For example I used to have a large pair of Living voice horn speakers and they strangely liked just one spike at the front with the 2 rear corners acting as wooden feet to form a triangle. I can almost guarantee that would not work for any other speaker.

I now own some small horn speakers and these are identical to a friends (Klipsch Heresy III) and in his room, with carpet and concrete floor he prefers spikes, in my room concrete floor with bonded wooden floor boards (underfloor heating) and a rug (not under the speakers) I prefer the standard metal foot on the front and some improvised hard/bakelite plastic balls on the rear that are adjustable on a threaded stud.

Everything makes a difference, and everyone's own context/perspective will provide a preference. Time spent exploring some simple and cost effective solutions in your room to your taste is definitely worth it. I am personally not inclined to buy expensive solutions to achieve this.

All of these interface changes also need to be considered ALONG with positional changes of the speaker in the room in my experience. It is a game of iteration and experiment until everything starts to come together. I also use REW and take measurements BUT I have found this only useful to signpost changes not to conclude them.

There simply is no one right solution IMO, just effort to achieve reward

Just my 2 pence worth

 

[IWC Doppel]

I have been playing with bass (subs) and integrating with main speakers and understanding what is going on with phase, Time alignment and so on for a long time.

In my experience a good starting point is to accept that a lot of measurements can help, but not listing can easily allow you to have nice graphs and mediocre sound.

1. The impact from a low frequency pressure wave needs to align with the higher frequencies associated with the sound, if you increase the bass too much, even if aligned correctly it can sound too heavy and almost soft and perception of speed and timing becomes a question by the listener. Without the low frequency support the bass has no weight, mass and realism but some will say 'tight' or clean, they mean 'weak' !
2. You need to look at and think about decay, RT60's and how you room is and the nodes. Obviously that is the inherent to the size of the room and seating positions. Acoustic treatment does help above 300 Hz, much harder and much more intrusive at say 30Hz. BUT dealing with the energy by DSP and EQ can help significantly. You need to get below 700ms at 20-50Hz ideally IMO. Bass boom isn't your equipment (most of the time) it's your room
3. Low frequency transmission through the floor can add a realistic visceral addition and add more tactility to the bass. It's a balance, who walks out or complains at theatres or stages with wooden floors or complains about the transmission of energy in a concert ? It happens in real life it can happen at home too, but heavy resonances are not what you want.
4. Ive never liked isolating the speaker by allowing damping and floating so any energy from the driver is lost pushing the speaker back successfully and a lot of these expensive speaker stands are expensive jewellery a lot of the time. EXPERIMENT ! You can find a spike increases or decreases the sound transmission - could be good , could be bad, etc, etc. The expensive 'isolating' science solution may well have provided a solution to one facet, but was that a problem, did it actually solve it and does it sound better for it !!!
5. The idea that you want your room not to behave like a room is mistaken , Floyde Toole's research has discussed this for years. It's removing the problem areas and not the room that you want to do. Getting decay times right, dealing with diffusion and absorption and listening to how things sound, speaker position, seating position etc, etc is the answer
6. There are preferences as well, my view on this which might be wrong ! Is we rarely listen to live music and complain about the sound, unless there is a fundamental error of-course . Live is live and it usually sounds great, it's how far short your home system falls and what we are sensitive too that dictates preferences. For me if the energy drive and dynamics are reduced I'm already turned off and no amount of resolution, 'detail' and imaging will compensate. For others the compromise will be different etc

 

[AudioHR]

I have been playing with bass (subs) and integrating with main speakers and understanding what is going on with phase, Time alignment and so on for a long time.

In my experience a good starting point is to accept that a lot of measurements can help, but not listing can easily allow you to have nice graphs and mediocre sound.

1. The impact from a low frequency pressure wave needs to align with the higher frequencies associated with the sound, if you increase the bass too much, even if aligned correctly it can sound too heavy and almost soft and perception of speed and timing becomes a question by the listener. Without the low frequency support the bass has no weight, mass and realism but some will say 'tight' or clean, they mean 'weak' !
2. You need to look at and think about decay, RT60's and how you room is and the nodes. Obviously that is the inherent to the size of the room and seating positions. Acoustic treatment does help above 300 Hz, much harder and much more intrusive at say 30Hz. BUT dealing with the energy by DSP and EQ can help significantly. You need to get below 700ms at 20-50Hz ideally IMO. Bass boom isn't your equipment (most of the time) it's your room
3. Low frequency transmission through the floor can add a realistic visceral addition and add more tactility to the bass. It's a balance, who walks out or complains at theatres or stages with wooden floors or complains about the transmission of energy in a concert ? It happens in real life it can happen at home too, but heavy resonances are not what you want.
4. Ive never liked isolating the speaker by allowing damping and floating so any energy from the driver is lost pushing the speaker back successfully and a lot of these expensive speaker stands are expensive jewellery a lot of the time. EXPERIMENT ! You can find a spike increases or decreases the sound transmission - could be good , could be bad, etc, etc. The expensive 'isolating' science solution may well have provided a solution to one facet, but was that a problem, did it actually solve it and does it sound better for it !!!
5. The idea that you want your room not to behave like a room is mistaken , Floyde Toole's research has discussed this for years. It's removing the problem areas and not the room that you want to do. Getting decay times right, dealing with diffusion and absorption and listening to how things sound, speaker position, seating position etc, etc is the answer
6. There are preferences as well, my view on this which might be wrong ! Is we rarely listen to live music and complain about the sound, unless there is a fundamental error of-course . Live is live and it usually sounds great, it's how far short your home system falls and what we are sensitive too that dictates preferences. For me if the energy drive and dynamics are reduced I'm already turned off and no amount of resolution, 'detail' and imaging will compensate. For others the compromise will be different etc

Great post!

Welcome to the forum, I am sure you will enjoy it.