Rowland 8t in for audition

[flez007]

I will have the opportunity to have a Rowland 8t in my system and compare it to my Levinson 333. Both amps have the same power output (300 Watts/ch) but quite different circuit topology and A/AB switching thresholds.

What should I expect in terms of pros&cons of the two?

(rest of my system is Avalon Ascent II speakers, Gryphon Bel Canto preamp, King/Cello phono and tape preamp, Technics 1520 modified RtR deck, Oppo and Mach2 Digital transports and an Havana modified DAC)

 

[MylesBAstor]

I will have the opportunity to have a Rowland 8t in my system and compare it to my Levinson 333. Both amps have the same power output (300 Watts/ch) but quite different circuit topology and A/AB switching thresholds.

What should I expect in terms of pros&cons of the two?

(rest of my system is Avalon Ascent II speakers, Gryphon Bel Canto preamp, King/Cello phono and tape preamp, Technics 1520 modified RtR deck, Oppo and Mach2 Digital transports and an Havana modified DAC)

Think you'll find them quite similar in character Both lean a little to the dark side and not ultra transparent like today's better amplifiers. Should hear pretty good control with attacks being slightly rounded. The Rowland (and it's been many years since hearing the two) might have a little more extension in the upper octaves.

 

[flez007]

Think you'll find them quite similar in character Both lean a little to the dark side and not ultra transparent like today's better amplifiers. Should hear pretty good control with attacks being slightly rounded. The Rowland (and it's been many years since hearing the two) might have a little more extension in the upper octaves.

Thanks Miles, I had an 8t some years back powering a set of Avalon Eclipses, and recall a "black blanket" presentation, elegant, controlled and very precise - but not that involving (that was one of the reasons of my move to the DM100). I find the 333 sound also coming from the Yin side, but due to its intrinsic distortions/colorations, more engaging as well.

It will be interesting how the 8t behaives with the Ascents.

 

[DaveyF]

Hi Fernando,

Interesting that you will once again have the opportunity of listening to the model 8.
Just to clarify, the model 8 puts out 250 watts/ch, so slightly less than your current ML.
BTW, this discussion of 'dark' doesn't really add up to me, as you know, I am a BIG believer
that the choice of your ancillary cabling will determine greatly what you hear from the amp.

IF you have a chance, maybe try swapping out your speaker cables and see how that effect the presentation.
To Myles, do you remember what cabling you heard the Rowland and the ML with at the time?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Fernando,

Interesting that you will once again have the opportunity of listening to the model 8.
Just to clarify, the model 8 puts out 250 watts/ch, so slightly less than your current ML.
BTW, this discussion of 'dark' doesn't really add up to me, as you know, I am a BIG believer
that the choice of your ancillary cabling will determine greatly what you hear from the amp.

IF you have a chance, maybe try swapping out your speaker cables and see how that effect the presentation.
To Myles, do you remember what cabling you heard the Rowland and the ML with at the time?

Wireworld
Transparent
Harmonic Tech
Cardas


And yes you're right about cables but one needs to find a snake that doesn't change the sound eg. Has a constant character rather than tone control

 

[mep]

Hi Fernando,

Interesting that you will once again have the opportunity of listening to the model 8.
Just to clarify, the model 8 puts out 250 watts/ch, so slightly less than your current ML.
BTW, this discussion of 'dark' doesn't really add up to me, as you know, I am a BIG believer
that the choice of your ancillary cabling will determine greatly what you hear from the amp.

IF you have a chance, maybe try swapping out your speaker cables and see how that effect the presentation.
To Myles, do you remember what cabling you heard the Rowland and the ML with at the time?

I believe that if an amp and/or preamp have a dark sound that all the white hot silver cable in the world won't change the basic character of the amp/preamp.

 

[flez007]

Hi Fernando,

Interesting that you will once again have the opportunity of listening to the model 8.
Just to clarify, the model 8 puts out 250 watts/ch, so slightly less than your current ML.
BTW, this discussion of 'dark' doesn't really add up to me, as you know, I am a BIG believer
that the choice of your ancillary cabling will determine greatly what you hear from the amp.

IF you have a chance, maybe try swapping out your speaker cables and see how that effect the presentation.
To Myles, do you remember what cabling you heard the Rowland and the ML with at the time?

Thanks for the clarification DaveyF, yes 250 Watts is the right number for the 8t, as you know I use Siltech G5 speaker cables, not the faster ones around! (i used Kimber 8T when I had them back in time with the Eclipses)

 

[DaveyF]

Fernando, if you have a chance, try some of the Nordost cables--from the Red Dawn and up, or some of the Kubala Sosna cables. As you know, I have a funny feeling that you will like the model 8 better than the ML...no idea why

 

[GuidoCorona]

Hi Fernando, Myles is more than likely on the money concerning audible differences between the 8T and the 333. It is also worth pointing out that neither devices represent the current sonic thinking of the respective designers/manufacturers... Both JRDG and ML have evolved considerably in terms of technology, resolution, and musicality during the last 15 years. Case in point, JRDG 8T is essentially 5 generations behind the current state of the art: M112, M302, M312, M625, and finally M625 2nd version. ML stereo amps have probably had a similar evolution. It would be fascinating to discover the differences between the current JRDG M625 2nd version or the new M725 mono, and the corresponding ML Nº53 or 500 series amps. What intrigues me is that JRDG appears to have returned to linear designs, while ML is now venturing the switching mode route. Both manufacturers are pushing for minimal length signal path. Admittedly In the end, underlying technology does not matter much, and only our ears count. G.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Fernando, Myles is more than likely on the money concerning audible differences between the 8T and the 333. It is also worth pointing out that neither devices represent the current sonic thinking of the respective designers/manufacturers... Both JRDG and ML have evolved considerably in terms of technology, resolution, and musicality during the last 15 years. Case in point, JRDG 8T is essentially 5 generations behind the current state of the art: M112, M302, M312, M625, and finally M625 2nd version. ML stereo amps have probably had a similar evolution. It would be fascinating to discover the differences between the current JRDG M625 2nd version or the new M725 mono, and the corresponding ML Nº53 or 500 series amps. What intrigues me is that JRDG appears to have returned to linear designs, while ML is now venturing the switching mode route. Both manufacturers are pushing for minimal length signal path. Admittedly In the end, underlying technology does not matter much, and only our ears count. G.

And who developed the first high-end switching amplifier?

 

[DaveyF]

Hi Fernando, Myles is more than likely on the money concerning audible differences between the 8T and the 333. It is also worth pointing out that neither devices represent the current sonic thinking of the respective designers/manufacturers... Both JRDG and ML have evolved considerably in terms of technology, resolution, and musicality during the last 15 years. Case in point, JRDG 8T is essentially 5 generations behind the current state of the art: M112, M302, M312, M625, and finally M625 2nd version. ML stereo amps have probably had a similar evolution. It would be fascinating to discover the differences between the current JRDG M625 2nd version or the new M725 mono, and the corresponding ML Nº53 or 500 series amps. What intrigues me is that JRDG appears to have returned to linear designs, while ML is now venturing the switching mode route. Both manufacturers are pushing for minimal length signal path. Admittedly In the end, underlying technology does not matter much, and only our ears count. G.

Guido, while I agree that the 8T is 5 generations behind the current production of JRDG, I do not think that it is 5 generations of improvement. The class D "experiments" that Jeff went down the path with are IMHO inferior to his prior amps, and specially his 8 and 9 series.
One of the biggest issues that I have with other a'philes in this hobby is their assumption that the latest has to be the greatest. Ladies and Gentlemen, IMO, this just ain't so in many, many examples.

Guido, your last sentence is iMO on the money.

 

[GuidoCorona]

Hi Myles, it appears that JRDG M10, M12, and M112 switch mode amps were introduced in 20000. The same year Spectron introduced its original Musician amp. But in 1999 Spectron had introduced an amp called Digital One.... I am not sure if Digital One was an analog switch mode amp, or a veritable digital device.

There are probably other early entries in the switch mode amplification arena.

G.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Myles, it appears that JRDG M10, M12, and M112 switch mode amps were introduced in 20000. The same year Spectron introduced its original Musician amp. But in 1999 Spectron had introduced an amp called Digital One.... I am not sure if Digital One was an analog switch mode amp, or a veritable digital device.

There are probably other early entries in the switch mode amplification arena.

G.

Much earlier

 

[flez007]

Hi Fernando, Myles is more than likely on the money concerning audible differences between the 8T and the 333. It is also worth pointing out that neither devices represent the current sonic thinking of the respective designers/manufacturers... Both JRDG and ML have evolved considerably in terms of technology, resolution, and musicality during the last 15 years. Case in point, JRDG 8T is essentially 5 generations behind the current state of the art: M112, M302, M312, M625, and finally M625 2nd version. ML stereo amps have probably had a similar evolution. It would be fascinating to discover the differences between the current JRDG M625 2nd version or the new M725 mono, and the corresponding ML Nº53 or 500 series amps. What intrigues me is that JRDG appears to have returned to linear designs, while ML is now venturing the switching mode route. Both manufacturers are pushing for minimal length signal path. Admittedly In the end, underlying technology does not matter much, and only our ears count. G.

Hi again Guido! - I agree with your lines, particullary on the advance of new designs and the quest for maximum resolution and dynamics that new sources offer. In this regard, I am not that sold yet on ultra-fast, hyper-resolution and sky is the limit dynamic range aproach that some manufacturers are following - the case is for example the 201 from JRDG which, on an unfamiliar setup - surprised me during the first minutes of critical listening but rapidly created a tense environment during that short session, a feeling only perceived by me among the 6+ listemers that day.

Of course I would like to have the chance to upgrade to the 625 we both heard at RMAF last year , but currently that route is marked as long-term in my investment plans.

Thanks for your comments, always appreciated.

 

[GuidoCorona]

Hi Fernando, M201 has no claims to being a reference product. Rather, it was JRDG first ICEpower amp, created for an entry level pricepoint. During the 203 timeframe when M201 was released, it was meant to yield value at a reasonable price. Conversely, 8T was conceived as a state of the art product for its time and technology. Hence I am not at all surprised if you much prefer 8T over M201. A more interesting comparison within the JRDG product line may be 8T versus M312--M312 being the most mature and state-of-the art stereo amp of that company's ICEpower phase.

 

[DaveyF]

Guido, I'm curious if you ever heard the original version of the 8, like the one I own that utilizes the choke power supply. Jeff told me years ago that he had to change the power supply, due to complaints from his far east clientele due to a propensity to hum ( which it does to some degree). However, he felt that the choke was in many ways superior to the dual mono that the revision entailed.

 

[mep]

I have never heard of a choke causing hum before now. Chokes arer normally used to "clean up" the DC after it has been converted from AC. Chokes were common back in the early days of tube gear and in recent years have made somewhat of a comeback. Hum is the bain of any stereo system and I hate it regardless of the source. None of us should have to put up with hum.

 

[flez007]

I have never heard of a choke causing hum before now. Chokes arer normally used to "clean up" the DC after it has been converted from AC. Chokes were common back in the early days of tube gear and in recent years have made somewhat of a comeback. Hum is the bain of any stereo system and I hate it regardless of the source. None of us should have to put up with hum.

mep, I had some residual hum in my K/C preamp also because of a choke implementation, which by the way is now almost gone after some modifications performed and following the designers advice.

 

[flez007]

Hi Fernando, M201 has no claims to being a reference product. Rather, it was JRDG first ICEpower amp, created for an entry level pricepoint. During the 203 timeframe when M201 was released, it was meant to yield value at a reasonable price. Conversely, 8T was conceived as a state of the art product for its time and technology. Hence I am not at all surprised if you much prefer 8T over M201. A more interesting comparison within the JRDG product line may be 8T versus M312--M312 being the most mature and state-of-the art stereo amp of that company's ICEpower phase.

Agree 100% Guido, at any rate - a 625 is on my long term plans - I will of course follow the route of any M312 out there for sale, not in a rush right now.

 

[GuidoCorona]

MEP, I agree with you about humm being annoying. That is one of the parameters that were no longer a concerned after selling my 1987 golden sounding Rowland 7M, whose low level humm came and went at will, in favor of current technology that I found to be dead quiet. The original M8 design, released in 1992, may have been suffering from similar issues. I guess that after 20 or 25 years, golden nostalgia may be enjoyed only at some "cost". I have not heard humm emitted from newer ML or JRDG equipment, but have occasionally experienced at RMAF a few amplifiers--mostly tubed--humming lustily, sounding like Buddhist monks throat-singing a mantra in some Tibetan monastry. Apparently that was part of their particular "mystique", or so I was told by the reps. G.