Seeking input/feedback on a somewhat unorthodox approach to marketing loudspeakers

[Duke LeJeune]

In KeithR's “Dream Speaker” search thread my forthcoming horn speaker was among those suggested for Keith to audition, which brings up a pivotal challenge: How does a small company provide demos of large and expensive loudspeakers, to Keith or to anyone else who might be reasonably interested?

I've seen pre-Covid posts on this forum lamenting the scarcity of opportunities in the United States to audition serious horn loudspeakers. And I've seen posts by people who travelled for auditions which, for various reasons (often amp or room related), ultimately proved inconclusive. And obviously none of this has gotten easier with the pandemic. Perhaps there is a better way.

I have an idea that I'd very much appreciate feedback from this forum's members about. I'll phrase it in general terms, but can answer specific questions.

The “better way” I have in mind is to make in-home auditions practical. The obvious hurdles are shipping cost, risk, the investment required, and the difficulty of uncrating and moving and re-crating large and heavy loudspeaker systems.

The solution I have in mind is to make a somewhat scaled-back demo version of my forthcoming large hybrid horn loudspeaker system. The demo version will incorporate all of the important (and perhaps unorthodox) characteristics of the full-up version. The enclosures will be smaller, lighter, utilitarian, and easily repairable if they get scratched or dinged. So they will be less risky for everyone and relatively easy to uncrate, move, and re-crate.

The demo system will be designed with subwoofers in mind. Most of us have access to subwoofers, so in most cases it will not be necessary to ship subwoofers back and forth.

How to structure the transaction is of course a vital topic, but for now I'm just hoping to hear the thoughts of What's Best Forum members on whether this approach to providing in-home auditions seems like a good idea. I invite you to be probing and brutal, as there may well be issues I haven't thought of.

Thanks!

Duke

 

[thedudeabides]

Great concept and the right approach IMHO. Key is implementation to sell product without you suffering severe financial hardship.

 

[wbass]

Pure Audio Project's approach seems interesting: They ship to you in flight cases, and then you assemble the speakers part by part. Supposedly, if you don't like what they sent, they have someone come pick it up. I've no idea how they do that, and how often people are actually auditioning PAP stuff, but the flight cases and the modularity would certainly help with some of the issues you raise, Duke.

I like the idea of a great horn twitter and midrange that can be paired with the subs one might already have. I feel that I might have been one of those people expressing how difficult it seems to be to audition any horn stuff other than Klipsch, and my afternoon with two Avantgarde models--I made a trip to hear them--suggested that horns seem to be fairly dependent on the room they're. I'm speaking from scant experience, I admit, but auditioning horns at home would certainly ratchet down the gamble for prospective customers.

I guess I've read a lot, on forums, about how horns should be paired with horn subs. But I dunno... given how massive horn subs seemingly need to be, it just seems impractical. So, yeah, horn mains down to a low enough frequency to blend nicely with conventional subs, that sounds really interesting to me.

 

[sbnx]

Duke, sounds like a good idea to have a "loaner" pair that you just ship around for demo purposes that way no one is worried about a little ding. How big and heavy are these? Shipping these days is pretty expensive. 70lbs on a pallet was about $350 to California. I guess in reality you just have the demo shipping cost built into the price of the speaker. Of course this is still less than the typical dealer profit that a person would pay.

Do you have pictures of your speaker yet?

 

[Al M.]

To be honest, Duke, I don't think a scaled down version would work at all.

Yes, the design principles might be the same, but depending on size of the speakers, you will have potentially very different speaker/room interactions.

I would never extrapolate the sound of the larger version in a room from the smaller one in that room.

 

[Solypsa]

Don't forget that many (maybe most) people listen with their eyes. If this weren't the case then the massive and overbuilt design ethos would not be so predominant in the high end...Imagine a $ six figure amp demo with the pcbs in a plywood box and a close, but lighter weight, power supply . Sound basically same? Odds are good. Impressive? Not really, well maybe for a diy geek...

Not trying to be negative, as this question is very interesting to me (I struggle with the idea of sending turntables for demo...so much to break, so much to setup poorly).

Well thought out, reusable, crate systems plus a caster system for the speakers might be a compromise? In this case ( large, heavy, expensive) I would imagine the end goal is that they keep them versus sending a sample set two ways, making a sale and then sending a new set.

Looking forward to some creative ideas!

 

[wbass]

I agree about not scaling down. I like the idea of casters. Is there a way to make things modular, so that one can install in two or three parts or whatever? (So that one person could handle it by themselves.) Might there be a way to get creative with the materials? Instead of a fine wood grain finish, for example, a bold, bright solid color. I think there's really a market for a horn that's built to high spec but not priced as high as some of the European manufacturers.

 

[caesar]

Hi Duke,

A few quick thoughts that can maybe add structure to your thinking on executing this...

For each step in the process:

A. initial interest/ awareness
B. consideration
C. purchase
D. shipping
E. setup
F. customer use, and
G. advocacy (on this site and others, shows, etc.)
(Feel free to add other steps/ modify steps to the process, as you envision this endeavor working.)

Go deep into each step above and consider what the individual is
1. Doing (vision - what person is looking, attending to, etc.)
2. Thinking (understandable language/ terms (audio terms are abstract and few share a common understanding of them), goals, expectations, stereotypes, mental models, etc.)
3. Feeling (what person is experiencing in each moment, fears, what could go wrong, what usually drives people crazy, concerns, bliss when setup, etc.)

This way you will be able to uncover the larger questions and opportunities you must address. See if you can bucket both your thoughts and the replies from the members into the above categories.

Best of luck!

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Thank you all very much for your responses!

Key is implementation to sell product without you suffering severe financial hardship.

Yes judging where to put one's marketing resources is a juggling of tradeoffs. I THINK this approach will maximize the number of auditions I can provide with the resources I have.

Pure Audio Project's approach seems interesting:

Agreed, this approach works very well for them.

I like the idea of a great horn twitter and midrange that can be paired with the subs one might already have.

Actually it's a "hybrid horn" speaker: Horn loaded top end (from about 800 Hz on up), and large direct radiator midwoofers.

I feel that I might have been one of those people expressing how difficult it seems to be to audition any horn stuff other than Klipsch, and my afternoon with two Avantgarde models--I made a trip to hear them--suggested that horns seem to be fairly dependent on the room they're. I'm speaking from scant experience, I admit, but auditioning horns at home would certainly ratchet down the gamble for prospective customers.

Yes, you helped convince me that there might be a window of opportunity for a shippable demo horn system. Thank you!!

I guess I've read a lot, on forums, about how horns should be paired with horn subs. But I dunno... given how massive horn subs seemingly need to be, it just seems impractical. So, yeah, horn mains down to a low enough frequency to blend nicely with conventional subs, that sounds really interesting to me.

I have several customers who have replaced their horn subs in their all-horn systems with the Swarm (four small subs intended to be distributed around the room), and thus far all have been happy with the result. So I'm reasonably confident that multiple conventional subs will work well.

How big and heavy are these?

The demo speakers look like about they'll be 44 inches tall by 14 inches wide by 16 inches deep, and projected weight is 90 to 95 pounds.

Do you have pictures of your speaker yet?

Not yet.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

To be honest, Duke, I don't think a scaled down version would work at all.

Yes, the design principles might be the same, but depending on size of the speakers, you will have potentially very different speaker/room interactions.

I would never extrapolate the sound of the larger version in a room from the smaller one in that room.

Thank you very much Al for raising this issue.

I have seen two What's Best Forum members order a larger model based on their audition of a smaller one: Exlibris (Odeon) and Willgolf (Viking Acoustics). So it could work for some people.

The full-up version will have two 15" midwoofers, and the demo version would have two 12" woofers in a smaller cabinet. The woofer sections will be very similar except for cone diameter and baffle width. The horn sections will have identical geometry up until the mouth round-over. The full-up version will have a larger-diameter roundover that extends all the way around to the back side of the horn (which will be mounted atop the midwoofer enclosure), while the demo version's horn will be mounted in the same enclosure as the twin 12" midwoofers. Both will include user-adjustable features for adaptation to the room. And both versions will have an identical user-adjustable rear-firing horn.

So there will be differences due to size, but in general they way they will interact with the room will have more similarities than differences. I think the in-room performance of the one will be representative of the other, like the in-room performance of the Odeon 26 was apparently sufficiently representatve of the in-room performance of the Odeon 33, for Exlibris.

Of course the option exists to do both, but my inclination is to do the smaller demo version first.

The smaller demo version will also be a full-sized demo version of another, smaller model, so if the demo nets us a sale of the smaller model that's okay too. Sort of like if Exlibris' audition of the Odeon 26 had resulted in a sale of that model, it would have still been a win for both parties.

 

[Sablon Audio]

Duke, I think you may need to send people the full spec model to audition so that they know exactly what they might eventually be ordering. Using a cheaper or B stock finish will help you manage your cost exposure. Asking the auditioner to cover the onbound shipping costs is fair and, on an item of this size / weight, will give you some insight into their level of seriousness.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Don't forget that many (maybe most) people listen with their eyes. If this weren't the case then the massive and overbuilt design ethos would not be so predominant in the high end...Imagine a $ six figure amp demo with the pcbs in a plywood box and a close, but lighter weight, power supply . Sound basically same? Odds are good. Impressive? Not really, well maybe for a diy geek...

I agree that the shippable demo version will completely fall short in effectively representing the design ethos of the full-up version. But I think we can convey the design ethos via photos of the full-up version.

Also, we will have a demo location with the full-up version, for those who would rather do that. So the shippable demo version would be in addition to the demo location with the full-up version.

Not trying to be negative, as this question is very interesting to me (I struggle with the idea of sending turntables for demo...so much to break, so much to setup poorly).

I would be TERRIFIED to ship turntables for an audition!

I would imagine the end goal is that they keep them versus sending a sample set two ways, making a sale and then sending a new set.

The goal actually is not that they keep the demo version with its utilitarian finish, as I won't want to put in the time to build another demo pair! The speaker systems will be built to order, as my past attempts to anticipate what kind of finishes people would like and do a cost-saving "small production run" have been expensive mistakes.

 

[jespera]

A net-a-porter for audiophiles!

Id be willing to pay full price and more for a service like that. Particularly because i dont have absolute acoustic memory and find direct comparison very useful.

But id also reserve the right to return without guilty feelings.

On the subject of subs: id rather have fast bass to 50-60hz than arse heavy thunder to 20-30hz. Maybe design your demo system that way..? Then subs can be added for the last octave 20-50hz rather than for 20-100 hz (say).

Jesper

 

[ddk]

@Duke LeJeune I agree with many of the comments above but would like to give you additional input, there's no guarantee that a home audition is worth anything and the buying public has to make the effort to hear products, it's not a one way street!

Large speakers, tube electronics, turntables, cartridges are logistical nightmares to ship cross country both for the seller and the buyer. IMO the vendors role is to offer a proper demo facility suited to what they're selling which can include home trial when feasible, to provide knowledgeable guidance and offer best realistic service standards not to spoon feed the public. A trip to a good showroom isn't a waste of time, it can be extremely informative and beneficial to the consumer. I disagree with eliminating physical interaction between sellers and consumers for the sake of "convenience".

david

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I agree about not scaling down. I like the idea of casters. Is there a way to make things modular, so that one can install in two or three parts or whatever? (So that one person could handle it by themselves.) Might there be a way to get creative with the materials? Instead of a fine wood grain finish, for example, a bold, bright solid color. I think there's really a market for a horn that's built to high spec but not priced as high as some of the European manufacturers.

Well you guys have got me seriously thinking about doing a full-size (but still utilitarian finish) shippable demo version.
Modularity would not be a problem. The full-size version would consist of a midbass cabinet, a large round horn, and a saddle atop the midbass cabinet for the horn to sit in. Not to mention the subwoofers, which hopefully would not need to be shipped.

A wide range of finishes will be available.

A few quick thoughts that can maybe add structure to your thinking on executing this...

A. initial interest/ awareness
B. consideration
C. purchase
D. shipping
E. setup
F. customer use, and
G. advocacy (on this site and others, shows, etc.)
(Feel free to add other steps/ modify steps to the process, as you envision this endeavor working.)

Go deep into each step above and consider what the individual is
1. Doing (vision - what person is looking, attending to, etc.)
2. Thinking (understandable language/ terms (audio terms are abstract and few share a common understanding of them), goals, expectations, stereotypes, mental models, etc.)
3. Feeling (what person is experiencing in each moment, fears, what could go wrong, what usually drives people crazy, concerns, bliss when setup, etc.)

Thanks for putting so much thought into your post. I get the impression that this sort of thing (business ventures) is one of your areas of expertise, and must admit I'm more of a geek than an entrepreneur.

The sequence of events I'm envisioning is a little bit different, and of course you accounted for that:

A. initial interest/awareness
B. consideration
C. decide how to audition (in-home or visit our demo facility or wait for a show)
D. if in-home, audition agreement and shipping arrangements
E. audition (and return shipping, if applicable)
F. deposit (after selection of model and finish)
G. final payment once the speakers are ready to ship
H. shipping
I. setup and customer use

I'll have to think a bit about the Doing/Thinking/Feeling aspects you articulated for each of those steps. Thank you for giving me some specific probing questions to ask myself!

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Duke, I think you may need to send people the full spec model to audition so that they know exactly what they might eventually be ordering. Using a cheaper or B stock finish will help you manage your cost exposure. Asking the auditioner to cover the onbound shipping costs is fair and, on an item of this size / weight, will give you some insight into their level of seriousness.

You just tipped the balance. It looks like I'll be doing a shippable full-size version. Thank you!!

Shipping costs will of course be applicable towards a purchase, and I'll cover some of them so that we'd both have skin in the game. But whereas the 212 demo-only speaker would ship via Fed Ex Ground, the multi-piece shippable full-size version will probably ship on a pallet.

A net-a-porter for audiophiles!

Id be willing to pay full price and more for a service like that. Particularly because i dont have absolute acoustic memory and find direct comparison very useful.

Thanks for the encouragement!!

But id also reserve the right to return without guilty feelings.

And I would want that for you as well. The only thing I would ask for is brutal honesty. If I lose the shoot-out, I don't want to lose opportunity to learn from it.

On the subject of subs: id rather have fast bass to 50-60hz than arse heavy thunder to 20-30hz. Maybe design your demo system that way..? Then subs can be added for the last octave 20-50hz rather than for 20-100 hz (say).

In my experience there is a tradeoff between "low end that blends well with subs" and "low end that can stand on its own down to 60 Hz." In my experience the latter results in too much upper-bass energy to blend well with subs, because a bit of "punch" is needed for the low end to stand on its own.

So my solution is, multiple pluggable ports: Leave all ports open for maximum bass energy, or plug as many as needed to blend well with subs.

 

[Solypsa]

...So my solution is, multiple pluggable ports: Leave all ports open for maximum bass energy, or plug as many as needed to blend well with subs.

For experienced users this sort of thing can be great, but there are many that might just fire it up and start making conclusions ( good or bad ) without doing the real setup work ( positioning, playing with subs and ports..).

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Duke

So this would be a couple of hundred pounds of speakers packed. Are you going to build reusable shipping cases for them. You going to palletize it?? We once auditioned an amp at Lansing Heritage doing essentially the same thing. Much easier with a single box but we certainly did have fun.

You might also want to consider shipment to a local and have the prospective purchaser offer auditions to friends who may also be interested to add exposure and another potential sale. We all tend to network so it might help you out in the long run.

Best of luck with this!

Rob

 

[Duke LeJeune]

@Duke LeJeune I agree with many of the comments above but would like to give you additional input, there's no guarantee that a home audition is worth anything and the buying public has to make the effort to hear products, it's not a one way street!

Thanks for posting David, I was hoping to hear from you. Agreed that in-home auditions are no guarantee, but they may be what works well for some people.

Large speakers, tube electronics, turntables, cartridges are logistical nightmares to ship cross country both for the seller and the buyer. IMO the vendors role is to offer a proper demo facility suited to what they're selling which can include home trial when feasible, to provide knowledgeable guidance and offer best realistic service standards not to spoon feed the public.

As a SoundLab dealer I'm somewhat familiar with logistical nightmare scenarios, hence my idea of the scaled-back demo speakers which could be shipped via Fed Ex Ground (slightly less of a nightmare).

My partner Jim Romeyn has a very nice listening room in his home just outside Logan Utah that we will use as our demo facility, with the shippable demo speakers being another option. I don't know which will work best.

A trip to a good showroom isn't a waste of time, it can be extremely informative and beneficial to the consumer. I disagree with eliminating physical interaction between sellers and consumers for the sake of "convenience".

That makes sense, but if we can significantly increase the number of people we reach by making in-home auditions possible, it might help us get these speakers off to a good start. We have some ground to cover if we're going to compete in the upscale market we're aspiring to.

Also, a significant part of what we think we have to offer is, adaptability to a wide variety of rooms (as long as they aren't overdamped). We think an in-home audition in someone's far-less-than-ideal room is a good way to demonstrate this.

For experienced users this sort of thing can be great, but there are many that might just fire it up and start making conclusions ( good or bad ) without doing the real setup work ( positioning, playing with subs and ports..).

Pluggable ports have SALVAGED at least two sales that were about to go south because the customer was getting too much bass. So even if the customer is not an experienced speaker geek, the option of plugging ports is imo valuable. I can make an educated guess as to what sort of port pluggage we should start with, and then we can adjust if necessary.

So this would be a couple of hundred pounds of speakers packed. Are you going to build reusable shipping cases for them. You going to palletize it?? We once auditioned an amp at Lansing Heritage doing essentially the same thing. Much easier with a single box but we certainly did have fun.

I plan to build well-padded wooden crates with screw-on tops. The relatively compact 2x12 demo speakers would be shippable via Fed Ex Ground, and so would the big modular 2x15 speakers, but when I checked prices the latter were generally less expensive to ship via motor freight. And depending on the distances involved, maybe I'd just drive them.

You might also want to consider shipment to a local and have the prospective purchaser offer auditions to friends who may also be interested to add exposure and another potential sale. We all tend to network so it might help you out in the long run.

Great idea - that could totally happen! THANKS!!

 

[Mark Seaton]

You just tipped the balance. It looks like I'll be doing a shippable full-size version. Thank you!!

Shipping costs will of course be applicable towards a purchase, and I'll cover some of them so that we'd both have skin in the game. But whereas the 212 demo-only speaker would ship via Fed Ex Ground, the multi-piece shippable full-size version will probably ship on a pallet.

Hi Duke,

As someone who deals with shipping large subwoofers all over, I would encourage you to not overlook the design you made out of necessity and the value it might represent.

Depending on the net performance compromises, a slightly more compact horn speaker that is more readily shippable and easy to handle/set up may get out in the market faster than a flagship product many just want to hear. If you are stepping directly to dealers with the ability to demonstrate and install the larger product, the flagship design might make more sense, but given the market awareness you have and those who I suspect might want to try such a speaker, the 12" based model might make a lot of sense. All of that packaging and handling does factor into the cost to the customer, and from other products you have, I'm sure you know how much more care and time is required as pretty cabinets get ever larger.

While the 12" based model might not directly sell the flagship, if you gain fans of this higher value offering that might fit in more rooms, there will be some that just want to buy the best you have available, and will either take a leap of faith based on the 12" offering, or will make a trip to Utah to hear them in a setup you have control over to show them at their best.

Some food for thought.