OTL amps like Atmasphere or Futterman.Do you know any models of such amplifiers, that will work well with Quads? Any tube amp without feedback?
OTL amps like Atmasphere or Futterman.Do you know any models of such amplifiers, that will work well with Quads? Any tube amp without feedback?
Our amps do well on them- usually our M-60 amp, but on the ESL63 the MA-1 did very nicely as well. I would expect the VAC Renaissance series since they were zero feedback and made a bit of power. I've lost track of all the zero feedback tube amps out there and there are a few.Do you know any models of such amplifiers, that will work well with Quads? Any tube amp without feedback?
Impressive stuff. You got some really nice figures out of your amps. Congratulations! Many people still don't understand that tubes are more linear than transistors. That's why you need so many transistors to make a good linear amp.Our amps do well on them- usually our M-60 amp, but on the ESL63 the MA-1 did very nicely as well. I would expect the VAC Renaissance series since they were zero feedback and made a bit of power. I've lost track of all the zero feedback tube amps out there and there are a few.
Why would you use a 10" driver when you already had a 15"? Typically you would cross the 15" around 500Hz so the midrange driver would be a lot smaller for best results...I bought a pair of Lii Audio Silver-10s after reading reviews. I mated them with the Lii 15" woofer in a Lionidas open baffle speaker I had someone build for me. The result was underwhelming to say the least. The silver 10" had a gigantic lower treble dropoff and little above 13khz The speaker builder had to add a tweeter (and build a new crossover) because the two drivers alone sounded awful. With the tweeter it was just OK, but the project cost me a fortune. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
From my speaker builder:
Attached are photos of my LMS System measurements of the Silver-10 driver in a semi-anechoic chamber.
The Silver-10 was removed from the crossover and directly measured by itself in the baffle.
- The LMS System had both Internal and External Calibrations performed just before testing.
- Tests were made with a calibrated microphone at 1-meter / 2.83V input.
- Both normal and gated responses were taken and found to be identical above 1KHz.
(purple curve is normal output, cyan curve is gated output)
- These are "raw" measurements with no smoothing or any other filtering applied.
Sensitivity agrees with documented value at around 98db.
But you can clearly see the dropout between 5.7KHz and 6.7KHz.
And the response climbs (and squeeks) above 8KHz before giving up.
So the response is +/- 8db from 1KHz to 13KHz.
Why would you use a 10" driver when you already had a 15"? Typically you would cross the 15" around 500Hz so the midrange driver would be a lot smaller for best results...
Uh, yikes?That's the Lii design. 15" woofer and 10" full-range driver. I read reviews that said it sounded great. I tried it with a number of different SETs and it sounded terrible. When we added the tweeter it wasn't bad but I paid a fortune between the drivers, the original build and the mod. On top of that, IMHO it's way too short and I needed to pay again to have good risers built.
Pair | Liionidas Extreme Open Baffle and Crossover and Drivers | High Class OB solution
Liionidas Extreme is reinforced Liionidas open baffle design with upgrades in design, material and finishing This set contains: Open baffles made with marine wood and high reflex lacquer A pair of Liionidas Crossover intergrated in metal spine Heavy Metal base with Spikes A Pair of...www.lii-audio.com
Uh, yikes?
It looks nice... Did you install the wings around the woofer? They are worth double the area of the main baffle. But you can get into cavity well resonance issues with them so you have to be careful.
The use of a 10" driver there makes no sense to me at all. The site is lacking specs. On stuff like this that sends up a red flag with me personally.
Use a mitsubishi diatone p 610 for the top speaker and your troubles are over passive.Yes. The wings are there. Why would a smaller driver be better? I'm not doubting you, I just have little expertise when it comes speaker building. Getting nice DIY speakers (and understanding the design) is kind of a bucket list thing for me. I've been an audiophile for 40+ years and I know what sounds good but I don't understand much about the designs and I would like to.
You mentioned there was a crossover so I assumed the 10" is rolled off at some frequency, perhaps 200Hz or the like.Yes. The wings are there. Why would a smaller driver be better? I'm not doubting you, I just have little expertise when it comes speaker building. Getting nice DIY speakers (and understanding the design) is kind of a bucket list thing for me. I've been an audiophile for 40+ years and I know what sounds good but I don't understand much about the designs and I would like to.
Well, I almost NEVER see unsmoothed plots because even slight positional adjustments can have a dramatic effect on comb filtering and other cancellation effects. Manufacturers show smoothed plots for very good reasons. Anyhow I have the same drivers however there are at least 3 iterations of the model and the older versions are still on their website just not indexed to any current pages. I have the 2019 version which has a higher QTs than to latest models. It is also instructive to note that these take an enormous amount of time to break in. I would say 700 to 800 hrs of decent playing levels before they smooth out and get things right. I was ready to give it up at 100 hrs myself but everyone said to let them burn. I also have my own xo implementation with the Crystal 10's run sans xo from my 211 amps and the 15's crossed over via a DSP xo around 180hz . The 15 Acoustic Elegance subs come in at 50hz. I still see a rise if response at 13k but it is nowhere near the peak you have. Moving the mic shows the cancellation effects shifting as well . That may be due to break-in, smoothing or both.
I recently added a supertweeter ala' PHY but did not have the plot available as my laptop was recently stolen with all my recent data.
The drivers are very well broken in now. The plots he gave me just confirmed what I heard. They sound better as a 3-way but I need to get a new top panel for one of them (long story) and the speaker guy says he has given up building / repairing / modifying speakers. I know a guy in Vegas that is supposed to be good and he's a really nice guy but shipping speakers is a PITA and expensive. Right now those OB speakers are just sitting in a spare room.You mentioned there was a crossover so I assumed the 10" is rolled off at some frequency, perhaps 200Hz or the like.
If you crossed over at 500Hz, a 5" driver might suit nicely and it would be faster likely with better high end response owing to a lighter cone.
But if the drivers aren't broken in all bets are off.
Do you know if the 10" is crossed over to limit LF response?The drivers are very well broken in now. The plots he gave me just confirmed what I heard. They sound better as a 3-way but I need to get a new top panel for one of them (long story) and the speaker guy says he has given up building / repairing / modifying speakers. I know a guy in Vegas that is supposed to be good and he's a really nice guy but shipping speakers is a PITA and expensive. Right now those OB speakers are just sitting in a spare room.
Yes I made them. They started off as a way to use some of our spare mouldings from what my company accumulates as scrap.Those are beautiful! Did you build them? If you ever decide to sell please let me know.
It looks like you have the LM amps. I imported their DHT preamp and a pair of LM speakers. The speakers are VERY expensive for what they are and are pretty poorly built; hodgepodge of screws, bolts securing the driver, 25 cents worth of foam insulation, etc. I did what I could to tune the cabinets and they sound much better. I think the coax driver is really nice.
I have parted ways with my speaker builder. He didn't want to work on anything for me anymore. I think he finds me too particular. I spent $10k with him in 2022 (on cabs and xovers) so I think I have earned the right to be picky. So far now I don't have a DIY guy.
Yes I made them. They started off as a way to use some of our spare mouldings from what my company accumulates as scrap.
I have made many and highly modified many speakers in my years as a retired R&D consumer electronics technician. These were probably the best return on time and investment by far. I know there are some shortcomings but I really feel a sense of musical satisfaction with these that I have not had with many things. I am forced to sit fairly close in a 22x37x10 room due to my wifes poor vision and these just tick more boxes and leave less wanting than other speakers.
Being that I am in Vegas I wonder if I know your Vegas contact.
Lionidas makes what looks like a pretty respectable 6.5" driver. At 500Hz it seems to have the same sensitivity and its also 8 Ohms. If it were me that is where I would have started but it sounds like you bought a kit.I'm not sure what the xover point is. I'd guess 500hz or so. The guy that built the baffles for me was into building his own crossovers. In fact he said that was his specialty. I have the Lionidas crossovers but in his words, "they are terrible.
Lionidas makes what looks like a pretty respectable 6.5" driver. At 500Hz it seems to have the same sensitivity and its also 8 Ohms. If it were me that is where I would have started but it sounds like you bought a kit.
Have you tried the crossover that came with the kit?
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