Single Driver Thoughts?

Audiophile Bill

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Atmasphere

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Do you know any models of such amplifiers, that will work well with Quads? Any tube amp without feedback?
Our amps do well on them- usually our M-60 amp, but on the ESL63 the MA-1 did very nicely as well. I would expect the VAC Renaissance series since they were zero feedback and made a bit of power. I've lost track of all the zero feedback tube amps out there and there are a few.
 
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AMR / iFi audio

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Our amps do well on them- usually our M-60 amp, but on the ESL63 the MA-1 did very nicely as well. I would expect the VAC Renaissance series since they were zero feedback and made a bit of power. I've lost track of all the zero feedback tube amps out there and there are a few.
Impressive stuff. You got some really nice figures out of your amps. Congratulations! Many people still don't understand that tubes are more linear than transistors. That's why you need so many transistors to make a good linear amp.
 

DHT4ME

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I have had quite a bit of single driver setups and have several friends with them as well.
They generally fall into 3 categories.
1 open baffle setups
2 front loaded horn
3 back loaded wether it’s a horn or closed box.

If you really must have a single driver wide band setup then the field narrows significantly. You need to understand that some great drivers were designed for specific implementations. Some are open baffle specific, some for blh and some front loaded horn.
I have the Pure Audio Project speakers which are not single driver but are a full range driver with augmentation woofers in open baffle.
if you have space the best sound I have heard is a system that is either the PAP approach or a front loaded horn with augmentation woofers. I greatly prefer the dipole approach of front loaded horn and open baffles.

the true single driver setups that are really great are the PHY-p 12” open baffle, the new Lii silver 10 in its custom enclosure or a Voight pipe with an AER driver.
The only turnkey commercially available single driver units that I have experienced and like are the Lii silver 10 (from Decware) and the AER systems. The PAP system and the PHY-p require some effort to finish. The Lii is ridiculously good for the money. Smaller driver setups just lack the mid bass and low bass for a balanced sound And are really targeted for very small room modest systems.
 
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ihmeyers

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I bought a pair of Lii Audio Silver-10s after reading reviews. I mated them with the Lii 15" woofer in a Lionidas open baffle speaker I had someone build for me. The result was underwhelming to say the least. The silver 10" had a gigantic lower treble dropoff and little above 13khz The speaker builder had to add a tweeter (and build a new crossover) because the two drivers alone sounded awful. With the tweeter it was just OK, but the project cost me a fortune. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

From my speaker builder:

Attached are photos of my LMS System measurements of the Silver-10 driver in a semi-anechoic chamber.

The Silver-10 was removed from the crossover and directly measured by itself in the baffle.

- The LMS System had both Internal and External Calibrations performed just before testing.
- Tests were made with a calibrated microphone at 1-meter / 2.83V input.
- Both normal and gated responses were taken and found to be identical above 1KHz.
(purple curve is normal output, cyan curve is gated output)
- These are "raw" measurements with no smoothing or any other filtering applied.

Sensitivity agrees with documented value at around 98db.
But you can clearly see the dropout between 5.7KHz and 6.7KHz.
And the response climbs (and squeeks) above 8KHz before giving up.
So the response is +/- 8db from 1KHz to 13KHz.
 

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Atmasphere

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I bought a pair of Lii Audio Silver-10s after reading reviews. I mated them with the Lii 15" woofer in a Lionidas open baffle speaker I had someone build for me. The result was underwhelming to say the least. The silver 10" had a gigantic lower treble dropoff and little above 13khz The speaker builder had to add a tweeter (and build a new crossover) because the two drivers alone sounded awful. With the tweeter it was just OK, but the project cost me a fortune. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

From my speaker builder:

Attached are photos of my LMS System measurements of the Silver-10 driver in a semi-anechoic chamber.

The Silver-10 was removed from the crossover and directly measured by itself in the baffle.

- The LMS System had both Internal and External Calibrations performed just before testing.
- Tests were made with a calibrated microphone at 1-meter / 2.83V input.
- Both normal and gated responses were taken and found to be identical above 1KHz.
(purple curve is normal output, cyan curve is gated output)
- These are "raw" measurements with no smoothing or any other filtering applied.

Sensitivity agrees with documented value at around 98db.
But you can clearly see the dropout between 5.7KHz and 6.7KHz.
And the response climbs (and squeeks) above 8KHz before giving up.
So the response is +/- 8db from 1KHz to 13KHz.
Why would you use a 10" driver when you already had a 15"? Typically you would cross the 15" around 500Hz so the midrange driver would be a lot smaller for best results...
 
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ihmeyers

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Why would you use a 10" driver when you already had a 15"? Typically you would cross the 15" around 500Hz so the midrange driver would be a lot smaller for best results...

That's the Lii design. 15" woofer and 10" full-range driver. I read reviews that said it sounded great. I tried it with a number of different SETs and it sounded terrible. When we added the tweeter it wasn't bad but I paid a fortune between the drivers, the original build and the mod. On top of that, IMHO it's way too short and I needed to pay again to have good risers built.

 

Atmasphere

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That's the Lii design. 15" woofer and 10" full-range driver. I read reviews that said it sounded great. I tried it with a number of different SETs and it sounded terrible. When we added the tweeter it wasn't bad but I paid a fortune between the drivers, the original build and the mod. On top of that, IMHO it's way too short and I needed to pay again to have good risers built.

Uh, yikes?
It looks nice... Did you install the wings around the woofer? They are worth double the area of the main baffle. But you can get into cavity well resonance issues with them so you have to be careful.

The use of a 10" driver there makes no sense to me at all. The site is lacking specs. On stuff like this that sends up a red flag with me personally.
 

ihmeyers

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Uh, yikes?
It looks nice... Did you install the wings around the woofer? They are worth double the area of the main baffle. But you can get into cavity well resonance issues with them so you have to be careful.

The use of a 10" driver there makes no sense to me at all. The site is lacking specs. On stuff like this that sends up a red flag with me personally.

Yes. The wings are there. Why would a smaller driver be better? I'm not doubting you, I just have little expertise when it comes speaker building. Getting nice DIY speakers (and understanding the design) is kind of a bucket list thing for me. I've been an audiophile for 40+ years and I know what sounds good but I don't understand much about the designs and I would like to.
 

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DasguteOhr

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Yes. The wings are there. Why would a smaller driver be better? I'm not doubting you, I just have little expertise when it comes speaker building. Getting nice DIY speakers (and understanding the design) is kind of a bucket list thing for me. I've been an audiophile for 40+ years and I know what sounds good but I don't understand much about the designs and I would like to.
Use a mitsubishi diatone p 610 for the top speaker and your troubles are over passive.;)
Activate your bass with yamaha studio amp with subwoofer xover

 

DHT4ME

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Well, I almost NEVER see unsmoothed plots because even slight positional adjustments can have a dramatic effect on comb filtering and other cancellation effects. Manufacturers show smoothed plots for very good reasons. Anyhow I have the same drivers however there are at least 3 iterations of the model and the older versions are still on their website just not indexed to any current pages. I have the 2019 version which has a higher QTs than to latest models. It is also instructive to note that these take an enormous amount of time to break in. I would say 700 to 800 hrs of decent playing levels before they smooth out and get things right. I was ready to give it up at 100 hrs myself but everyone said to let them burn. I also have my own xo implementation with the Crystal 10's run sans xo from my 211 amps and the 15's crossed over via a DSP xo around 180hz . The 15 Acoustic Elegance subs come in at 50hz. I still see a rise if response at 13k but it is nowhere near the peak you have. That may be due to break-in, smoothing or both. Moving the mic shows the cancellation effects shifting as well .

I recently added a supertweeter ala' PHY but did not have the plot available as my laptop was recently stolen with all my recent data.
 

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Atmasphere

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Yes. The wings are there. Why would a smaller driver be better? I'm not doubting you, I just have little expertise when it comes speaker building. Getting nice DIY speakers (and understanding the design) is kind of a bucket list thing for me. I've been an audiophile for 40+ years and I know what sounds good but I don't understand much about the designs and I would like to.
You mentioned there was a crossover so I assumed the 10" is rolled off at some frequency, perhaps 200Hz or the like.

If you crossed over at 500Hz, a 5" driver might suit nicely and it would be faster likely with better high end response owing to a lighter cone.

But if the drivers aren't broken in all bets are off.
 
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ihmeyers

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Well, I almost NEVER see unsmoothed plots because even slight positional adjustments can have a dramatic effect on comb filtering and other cancellation effects. Manufacturers show smoothed plots for very good reasons. Anyhow I have the same drivers however there are at least 3 iterations of the model and the older versions are still on their website just not indexed to any current pages. I have the 2019 version which has a higher QTs than to latest models. It is also instructive to note that these take an enormous amount of time to break in. I would say 700 to 800 hrs of decent playing levels before they smooth out and get things right. I was ready to give it up at 100 hrs myself but everyone said to let them burn. I also have my own xo implementation with the Crystal 10's run sans xo from my 211 amps and the 15's crossed over via a DSP xo around 180hz . The 15 Acoustic Elegance subs come in at 50hz. I still see a rise if response at 13k but it is nowhere near the peak you have. Moving the mic shows the cancellation effects shifting as well . That may be due to break-in, smoothing or both.

I recently added a supertweeter ala' PHY but did not have the plot available as my laptop was recently stolen with all my recent data.


Those are beautiful! Did you build them? If you ever decide to sell please let me know.

It looks like you have the LM amps. I imported their DHT preamp and a pair of LM speakers. The speakers are VERY expensive for what they are and are pretty poorly built; hodgepodge of screws, bolts securing the driver, 25 cents worth of foam insulation, etc. I did what I could to tune the cabinets and they sound much better. I think the coax driver is really nice.

I have parted ways with my speaker builder. He didn't want to work on anything for me anymore. I think he finds me too particular. I spent $10k with him in 2022 (on cabs and xovers) so I think I have earned the right to be picky. So far now I don't have a DIY guy.
 

ihmeyers

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You mentioned there was a crossover so I assumed the 10" is rolled off at some frequency, perhaps 200Hz or the like.

If you crossed over at 500Hz, a 5" driver might suit nicely and it would be faster likely with better high end response owing to a lighter cone.

But if the drivers aren't broken in all bets are off.
The drivers are very well broken in now. The plots he gave me just confirmed what I heard. They sound better as a 3-way but I need to get a new top panel for one of them (long story) and the speaker guy says he has given up building / repairing / modifying speakers. I know a guy in Vegas that is supposed to be good and he's a really nice guy but shipping speakers is a PITA and expensive. Right now those OB speakers are just sitting in a spare room.
 

Atmasphere

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The drivers are very well broken in now. The plots he gave me just confirmed what I heard. They sound better as a 3-way but I need to get a new top panel for one of them (long story) and the speaker guy says he has given up building / repairing / modifying speakers. I know a guy in Vegas that is supposed to be good and he's a really nice guy but shipping speakers is a PITA and expensive. Right now those OB speakers are just sitting in a spare room.
Do you know if the 10" is crossed over to limit LF response?
 
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DHT4ME

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Those are beautiful! Did you build them? If you ever decide to sell please let me know.

It looks like you have the LM amps. I imported their DHT preamp and a pair of LM speakers. The speakers are VERY expensive for what they are and are pretty poorly built; hodgepodge of screws, bolts securing the driver, 25 cents worth of foam insulation, etc. I did what I could to tune the cabinets and they sound much better. I think the coax driver is really nice.

I have parted ways with my speaker builder. He didn't want to work on anything for me anymore. I think he finds me too particular. I spent $10k with him in 2022 (on cabs and xovers) so I think I have earned the right to be picky. So far now I don't have a DIY guy.
Yes I made them. They started off as a way to use some of our spare mouldings from what my company accumulates as scrap.
I have made many and highly modified many speakers in my years as a retired R&D consumer electronics technician. These were probably the best return on time and investment by far. I know there are some shortcomings but I really feel a sense of musical satisfaction with these that I have not had with many things. I am forced to sit fairly close in a 22x37x10 room due to my wifes poor vision and these just tick more boxes and leave less wanting than other speakers.

Being that I am in Vegas I wonder if I know your Vegas contact.
 

ihmeyers

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It is. I'm not sure what the xover point is. I'd guess 500hz or so. The guy that built the baffles for me was into building his own crossovers. In fact he said that was his specialty. I have the Lionidas crossovers but in his words, "they are terrible. Much worse than I could build for you," so I paid him to do that. When the end result wasn't good, I had to pay him again to design and build 3-way xovers for the tweeter we were adding.
 

ihmeyers

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Yes I made them. They started off as a way to use some of our spare mouldings from what my company accumulates as scrap.
I have made many and highly modified many speakers in my years as a retired R&D consumer electronics technician. These were probably the best return on time and investment by far. I know there are some shortcomings but I really feel a sense of musical satisfaction with these that I have not had with many things. I am forced to sit fairly close in a 22x37x10 room due to my wifes poor vision and these just tick more boxes and leave less wanting than other speakers.

Being that I am in Vegas I wonder if I know your Vegas contact.


You probably wouldn't know him because he is primarily a car restoration/fabrication guy and I know him from a care guy in Vegas. His name is Ben Waage and he works with wood as well. His metal fabrication is fantastic and he has worked on very high-end custom car builds. He has offered to help me out with Lii OBs. I know he could finish really nice cabinets but I don't know him well enough to know how well he could tune a box or his understanding of caps, wires, etc. I have very little technical knowledge and zero skill in building amps or speakers, but I have a pretty good ear and can hear the differences in caps, resistors, tubes, wire etc.

Ian

p.s. really envious of your speakers :)
 

Atmasphere

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I'm not sure what the xover point is. I'd guess 500hz or so. The guy that built the baffles for me was into building his own crossovers. In fact he said that was his specialty. I have the Lionidas crossovers but in his words, "they are terrible.
Lionidas makes what looks like a pretty respectable 6.5" driver. At 500Hz it seems to have the same sensitivity and its also 8 Ohms. If it were me that is where I would have started but it sounds like you bought a kit.

Have you tried the crossover that came with the kit?
 
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ihmeyers

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Lionidas makes what looks like a pretty respectable 6.5" driver. At 500Hz it seems to have the same sensitivity and its also 8 Ohms. If it were me that is where I would have started but it sounds like you bought a kit.

Have you tried the crossover that came with the kit?

I didn't buy a kit, just the Silver-10s and the 15" woofers. They threw in crossovers for free. I paid the local speaker builder I was using (in S. Florida) $2k to build/finish the baffles. Bill (the speaker builder) told me the Lii crossover was no good so I paid him to design/build a better one.

The speaker didn't sound any good (not high end) so I paid Bill to modify it and add tweeters. I had to pay him to modify the crossover as well to incorporate the tweeter.

The original Leonidas build offered on their website was of very basic quality and my wife is understanding to a point ("nothing that looks like a science project.") I see Lii now has a nicer looking baffle but it's $4300 without the drivers (which of course I have) which IMO is absurd especially sight unseen.

Fortunately I have many pairs of speakers, but I feel dumb having more than $3.5K sunk into these and now I need to get a new baffle for the full-range driver / tweeter because of something dumb I did (though in all fairness Madisound is at fault for my error as well). I get frustrated with it all but it's just a hobby and I know these are first-world problems.
 

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