Sliding force???

I accidentally happened upon an ECM LP with a blank fourth side ("Into The Silence")

1547148458222.png

and notice what happens:


Then I enabled and adjusted anti-skating to tame it:


I know ddk has designed his platter to provide a sliding effect to some degree, but I thought mine was excessive. Still trying to assess possible sonic effect.
 
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jadis

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#61
that may be true but what does it do to the sound? form what I am hearing with some antiskate applied, I could argue that it sounds more "focused" but doe it still sound as natural open as it does without sliding force applied. Tradeoffs I guess.
That's exactly what I'm getting in terms of sound or music - natural openness, with zero anti skate, and it's something I've never heard before.

My next quandary is, if there is a need to add some little force, what is the basis? From 0-4 for example, how do you even begin to say .5 is better than 1.0 or worse? When is .75 better than 1.25 and so on? And with those string weight anti skate gadgets, which bar do you use as there is no number scale?
 

jadis

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#63
And while we're at it, let me just share this finding about the behavior of the Rega 300 arm. I have read how anti-skating mechanisms vary from one arm brand to another so here it is. Rega. 6 years ago, I moved into a Rega pivoted arm since it came as a package with the Avid Diva turntable, after spending some 20+ years with a linear tonearm. I asked an 'expert' in Manila to help me fine tune the arm settings and he immediately told me that among all arms he had played with, the Rega is one that will not deadlock on a blank disc no matter what anti-skate number it is set to. And he showed it to me in my house. Apparently he is also one who believes in the blank record thing. The best that he can do is to set the Rega arm with anti skate bias at 1.5 (middle) and the the arm/cartridge will deadlock at the middle 3rd part of the record. The first one third part, it would be sliding inwards then stop in the middle 3rd. The last one third part (near the spindle), it would be sliding outwards and stop at the middle 3rd part as well. He told me that the in motion at the beginning will cancel out the out motion of the end part and prevent any skewing or bending possibility by the cantilever, so long as I do not keep playing the first few cuts for all my records. :D And amazingly, for 6 years, it worked, not distortions, no cantilever bending, balanced sound. Of course I never set it to 0 so I wouldn't know if it would have sounded 'better'. :)
 
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ack

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#65
Just found this too, quite informative, from Soundsmith's Peter L - He believes in some AS adjustment, but not by a test record.

https://www.sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-adjust-anti-skating-my-cartridge
This is VERY well written, and it is precisely what I have recently done: slow down the sliding force using the smooth area of a record toward the center (contrast with my original ill-fated goal to offset it entirely in the middle of a blank record). Here are two videos to show the effect that Lederman/Schroeder suggest, first without and then with some anti-skate:

BEFORE:

AFTER:
 

jadis

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#66
This is VERY well written, and it is precisely what I have recently done: slow down the sliding force using the smooth area of a record toward the center (contrast with my original ill-fated goal to offset it entirely in the middle of a blank record). Here are two videos to show the effect that Lederman/Schroeder suggest, first without and then with some anti-skate:

BEFORE:

AFTER:
Very nice, Tasos. That is the gist of the Lederman/Schroeder approach - on the dead wax, slower movement in. I might do that someday, but still I have to watch out for the skew of the cantilever, that is my basis for a countercheck of not too much anti-skating force applied.
 

ack

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#67
So to be quite honest, what you see is with the [seemingly] perfectly flat Analogue Productions Test LP, and things are not as rosy with non-flat LPs; I tested with other LPs and most are flat-ish. Then, to circle back 180 degrees, I tried again with the blank LP side used originally, and the results match the Test LP's. In other words, it's all relative, and care must be taken to find an LP with a flat dead wax area.
 
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jadis

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#68
Tasos,

I know your VPI AS mechanism does not have a 0-4 dial like some tonearms. But there is a 0, right? And there is a max setting via whatever VPI designed, grid, teeth dents, etc. On the Lederman method you posted on Video 2, how near were you set, from a minimum to maximum standpoint, eg, very close to 0, or half way to max, or one fourth to max ?
 

jadis

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#69
And now I just tested that Lederman method. At 0 AS, it scoots right in toward the spindle very fast. I kept adding, 0.50, 1.0, 1.5, still sliding but slower and at 1.80 (which is the tracking force of my Koetsu Urushi, it skids really slow like your 2nd video. But the problem is, I had used the 1.8 AS bias setting from the day I got the Koetsu (March) and about last month noticed a leftward bend of the cantilever, at the 1.80 bias setting. Now, I believe I cannot let that setting live on for the rest of the Koetsus days, as I've been told a slanted cantilever is a No-No. So here I am, back to 0. If someday, I notice a slanting 'out', then I will be urged to add some AS bias. It's funny, because I hear 'openness' and better balance this way. Putting in the suggested 1,80 bias skews the cantilever - maybe to a point to permanent destruction. So I read them opinions right as well, AS also varies from tonearm to tonearm. We just have to be vigilant and observant.
 
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ack

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#70
On this arm, there is 0 bias if you disengage the anti-skating device, and then there is everything else. So impossible to quantify any other setting; here's what it currently looks like:

IMG_3746.jpg

The thread is attached to the top-most position of the right arm of this V structure which affects anti-skate in its own way; then, the weights and their position on the other arm of the V structure add anti-skate as well.

The only way to figure out what the anti-skate force is would be to somehow measure it, and I am trying to find a way to do it. But as Lederman/Schoeder say, the amount of this force needed would depend on VTF. Therefore, SME's approach of setting anti-skate as a percentage of VTF appears to be correct. Beautiful arms!
 
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ack

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And now I just tested that Lederman method. At 0 AS, it scoots right in toward the spindle very fast. I kept adding, 0.50, 1.0, 1.5, still sliding but slower and at 1.80 (which is the tracking force of my Koetsu Urushi, it skids really slow like your 2nd video. But the problem is, I had used the 1.8 AS bias setting from the day I got the Koetsu (March) and about last month noticed a leftward bend of the cantilever, at the 1.80 bias setting. Now, I believe I cannot let that setting live on for the rest of the Koetsus days, as I've been told a slanted cantilever is a No-No. So here I am, back to 0. If someday, I notice a slanting 'out', then I will be urged to add some AS bias. It's funny, because I hear 'openness' and better balance this way. Putting in the suggested 1,80 bias skews the cantilever - maybe to a point to permanent destruction. So I read them opinions right as well, AS also varies from tonearm to tonearm. We just have to be vigilant and observant.
One should not need so much force. Have you placed a bubble level on the platter?
 
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jadis

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#72
One should not need so much force. Have you placed a bubble level on the platter?
Oh yes, bubble level on the platter has been a must for me, I am very finicky about that, in the spindle itself, on the platter, on the plinth of the table, and on the arm board. I have become very OC with the bubble level for some reasons. :) I call in the Linn dealer when I need re calibration on leveling.
 

jadis

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#73
And now I just found out something. If I slowly drop the cartridge into the beginning of the dead wax as you did in video 1, it gives a fast scoot inwards, BUT, if I wait for the song, or music to finish itself and groove glides its way into the dead wax, IT NOW SCOOTS VERY SLOWLY, just like in your 2nd video, with ZERO AS. Now I am wondering if my AS is suddenly 'correct'?
 
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jadis

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#74
On this arm, there is 0 bias if you disengage the anti-skating device, and then there is everything else. So impossible to quantify any other setting; here's what it currently looks like:

View attachment 56086

The thread is attached to the top-most position of the right arm of this V structure which affects anti-skate in its own way; then, the weights and their position on the other arm of the V structure add anti-skate as well.
I see the thread is hooked to the first or top most 'groove' as there are 4 grooves to put the string on. Is the first groove the lightest, and the last groove at the lowest point the heaviest?
 

ack

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#75
So VPI's anti-skate mechanism is anything but scientific. The top-most groove offers the largest rotational angle from start to finish, and I chose it thinking that it would offer less of an anti-skating force. So nothing really scientific here.

What it your arm's headshell offset angle? Can you post a picture looking from the ceiling?
 
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ack

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#76
And now I just found out something. If I slowly drop the cartridge into the beginning of the dead wax as you did in video 1, it gives a fast scoot inwards, BUT, if I wait for the song, or music to finish itself and groove glides its way into the dead wax, IT NOW SCOOTS VERY SLOWLY, just like in your 2nd video, with ZERO AS. Now I am wondering if my AS is suddenly 'correct'?
In my second video, I still dropped the cartridge onto the smooth surface, and it never fell into a groove until the very end
 
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ack

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#79
So I am wondering if the length of the arm plays a role here. Lederman/Schroeder say it's this headshell offset angle that creates this sliding force - not sure I agree entirely, because if the platter and LP are not entirely flat then they would also affect it - and under that assumption, would/could the arm's length make this force smaller or larger. Not sure, just throwing a question and idea out there.
 
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PeterA

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#80
So I am wondering if the length of the arm plays a role here. Lederman/Schroeder say it's this headshell offset angle that creates this sliding force - not sure I agree entirely, because if the platter and LP are not entirely flat then they would also affect it - and under that assumption, would/could the arm's length make this force smaller or larger. Not sure, just throwing a question and idea out there.
Ack, the longer the arm, the less the offset angle. The less the angle, the lower the skating force. Therefore, the longer the arm, the less anti skate one needs. At least that is how I understand it.

Imagine an infinitely long pivoting arm. The offset angle would approach zero degrees, or just like a linear tracking arm.
 
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