SOTA Horns. Do they still have 'Horn Colorations'

musicfirst1

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I think many, if not most of us on WBAF feel speakers with horns/wave guides do some things exceptionally well, like epic dynamics and synergies with low powered amplification. For me, these attributes have historically come at the expense of neutrality. I'm not sure if the colorations I've heard in the past are due to the design of the horns or the type of drivers used, or both. I got rid of my 70's Klipsches because of this.
The Avantgarde's which are ubiquitus at shows are still colored to my ear.
Are there newer designs which have addressed this problem?
 
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Robh3606

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Yes I have JBL PTH waveguides, M2 waveguides and Array Horns and all three are free from any obvious coloration's. So in my mind the more modern designs outperform the older types in this aspect. All 3 of these systems are CD so the off axis and overall power response more closely match the on axis response. This makes them easier to place in a room.

Rob :)
 
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Folsom

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I don’t know how you could call Avantgarde SOTA for horns. They are not the oldest style but might as well be.

The M2 mentioned is SOTA, but is barely a horn and only for some frequencies. JBL probably has some theater horns that are free of colorations.

Danley is probably the single only truly SOTA horn maker.
 
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cjfrbw

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Boxes and horns will always have coloration. The speaker making skill is blending the colorations into the Haas effect so that they are either pleasantly integrated into the main signal as ambience/enhancement, are diminished to a low level, or the brain doesn't notice them after a short period of accommodation.

Having had ribbons for a long time, it's the first thing I notice with boxes and horns. However, after a bit of listening, my brain can do accommodation for the better samples.
 
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Folsom

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I'd never heard of Danley. What a broad and somewhat bewildering array of speakers they offer. Have you used them or heard them?

Not that I recall. It's hard to find out locations they're used in. They were originally used as venue type stuff, but a good number of people use them at home now, largely the SH50 because of the nice size and nice bandwidth. There's a couple companies paying Danley/ripping him off for speakers that cost a HELL of a lot more.
 
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kodomo

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Danley is an innovative company in respect to horns, for the last 20 years the rest of the companies were partly making the older designs better and these are generally pro-audio companies. The home audio or hi-fi companies were barely innovating at all.

Anyway, the horn coloration is not only related to the type of horn but to how it is used in the whole speaker system. Everything has an effect, from the chosen bandwidth to material the horn is built. There is also the classic problem of what is the coloration we are talking about and if what we are talking about is the same thing. These "words" get lost and also have different meanings in different peoples imagination.

I am lucky to have klipschorns (fully modded by Volti audio), a custom built 5 way horn system at home as well as lot of other horns in my shed or at my business (cd type, conical, tractrix, jmlc, pro audio horns in arrays etc) to listen and measure for their differences. To contrast these topologically, as a former studio owner, I have also kept a variety studio monitors which hopefully lets my ears not get caught up in one type of sound reproduction.

After all these, and a passion for horns, I set-up a company as of this year and will hopefully be bringing out an original horn speaker design next year. It is not a complete new way of thinking like Tom Danley's but still an original approach to horn speakers. I hope these are ok to write here if not please let me know and I wil take the rest of it out.

As far as I know there are no other commercial horn speaker design like the new speaker we will be bringing out. If people think it resembles my system, it is nothing like my 5 way horn system. I have been testing, measuring and listening to my finished prototype for the last few weeks and when the product is out, hopefully it will bridge the gap between the people who like planar/ribbon speakers and horn speakers and people who prefer less colorations. All my initial tests and measurements prove to be very good so I am quite hopeful on the outcome. As you may guess, nothing, no speaker is free of coloration, if one says so, they are meaning something else than what I am meaning.

I am taking my time for refinements, also waiting for the xo design that will replace the test crossovers from a very well known US amp and xo designer whom we are very lucky to be collaborating. We will share proper and varied measurements with the product roll-out. The measurements I have now are quasi-anechoic, in room response and electrical measurements. We will also be providing actual anechoic response measurements along in room responses from a variety of different rooms. I hope to bring a different and original choice for horn lovers and people who wants to get into horn speakers :)
 

Duke LeJeune

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I think many, if not most of us on WBAF feel speakers with horns/wave guides do some things exceptionally well, like epic dynamics and synergies with low powered amplification. For me, these attributes have historically come at the expense of neutrality...

Are there newer designs which have addressed this problem?

In opinion, yes.

I have had several blind audiophiles in my room at audio shows and not one has been aware they were hearing horns until they were told. One of them owned horn speakers.

I think there are two general types of modern horns which have negligible traditional "horn coloration", with tradeoffs between the two.

One type is "constant directivity", which means that the radiation pattern is approximately the same width up and down the spectrum. This type of horn is often called a "waveguide", as its primary function is pattern control rather than acoustic amplification. The waveguide-style horns I use are based largely if not entirely on the work of Dr. Earl Geddes. JBL also makes waveguide-style horns which do not appear to have any connection to Geddes, such as the horn in the M2.

The other type might be called a "narrowing directivity" horn, in that the radiation pattern progressively narrows as we go up in frequency. These would include the LeCleac'h, Iwata, and Minphase horn profiles.

The amount of top-end energy a compression driver produces is a limiting factor. The "narrowing directivity" types concentrate this top-end energy on-axis and thus are capable of higher system efficiency (assuming reasonably "flat" on-axis response). The "constant directivity" types spread this top-end energy across a wider area and so the axial efficiency is less (which correspondingly reduces the achievable system efficiency), but the off-axis energy is more spectrally correct.

I can go into detail about the specifics of modern low-coloration horn design, if anyone is interested. Briefly, attention is given to reducing reflections and diffraction within the horn itself, as these are sources of coloration which cannot be fixed by equalization.

I set-up a company as of this year and will hopefully be bringing out an original horn speaker design next year... hopefully it will bridge the gap between the people who like planar/ribbon speakers and horn speakers and people who prefer less colorations.

Sweet!!

Your idea seems to be to combine, as much as possible, the "best of both worlds" between horns and planars.
I share your dream (or at least have a similar one), and wish you the very best.
 
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bonzo75

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I think many, if not most of us on WBAF feel speakers with horns/wave guides do some things exceptionally well, like epic dynamics and synergies with low powered amplification. For me, these attributes have historically come at the expense of neutrality. I'm not sure if the colorations I've heard in the past are due to the design of the horns or the type of drivers used, or both. I got rid of my 70's Klipsches because of this.
The Avantgarde's which are ubiquitus at shows are still colored to my ear.
Are there newer designs which have addressed this problem?

Klipsch, avantgarde is not much horn exposure. Why use statements like "many/most of us at WBF"? Just say what you think, that's fine

Most horns are very different to each other to generalize any attribute. But the ones with beryllium diaphragms like Radian and TAD are the least colored most neutral and transparent and detailed as far as drivers go. JBL can be used with beryllium diaphragm as well. After that it comes down to the horn used, crossovers etc. But you can make a horn colored or relatively neutral like any speaker. Lots of flexibility. Doped paper drivers are excellent too

As far as designs go there is nothing new in horns. Front firing, downward firing, back loaded, same old wine in new bottle. commercial people can't usually do just a copy so they keep trying something different and that's where they can screw up.

Keep it simple and follow existing proven old designs.
 
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DaveC

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Boxes and horns will always have coloration. The speaker making skill is blending the colorations into the Haas effect so that they are either pleasantly integrated into the main signal as ambience/enhancement, are diminished to a low level, or the brain doesn't notice them after a short period of accommodation.

Having had ribbons for a long time, it's the first thing I notice with boxes and horns. However, after a bit of listening, my brain can do accommodation for the better samples.


I agree, it's impossible to for the transducer to have no effect on the sound, whatever it is, but as long as the colorations are low-level and benign it's not a big deal. Some colorations cause listening fatigue, these are a big deal.

Low-level/benign colorations your brain can filter out like like it does most constant smells, for example incense. You may not smell it anymore until you go outside and then come back inside, then you notice the incense once again. OTOH rotten foods will usually be a constant irritant. I think the difference is whether or not your brain interprets the input as a potential threat, some sounds cause an "alert" reaction and some smells are bad because eating rotten food is hazardous. I believe listening fatigue is caused by an "alert" reaction to certain types of sounds, and that it's important to not stimulate the nervous system in that way. However, some people find an "alert" reaction to be exciting short-term so on occasion I've seen people have preference for it.
 

Folsom

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I don't see what's wrong with new designs... Although not all sound good. But not all old ones do either. Implementation more than actual horn name designation matters.
 
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