Speakers for hypex nc1200 power amp

[Rogerfederer]

Hello,

My wife and myself will move soon in a new home. This means more space! So it is time for me to buy new speakers for my living room. Is there something more fun? I am not sure

I have one hypex nc1200 based amplifier (apollon audio's flagship) and I don't really know what I should look for. So if you feel like to help, thanks in advance.

I don't have any shape preference, floorstanding or bookshelf is not an issue. I just can't put big magnepans in the room (wife would kill me) But, I have been using speakers with I less than 86db sensitivity so far with a nice results. Should I be afraid to move higher?

This amp is supposed to be able to drive any load and is quite powerful. I would be glad for any advice you can give.

Have a nice music!
ROGER

 

[DonH50]

Price range?

Revel F206, F226Be, F208, F228Be, F328Be, or Salon2 come to mind since I am running Revel after years of Maggies. There are so many great speakers in different "flavors" that you should really audition them yourself.

 

[Rogerfederer]

Thanks very much for your answer.
My target is below 10k

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for answering my questions in your "Newbie from France" thread. I have pasted your replies here as they might be useful to others (Roger's replies to my questions are in bold):

Do you have a ballpark idea of what your living room size will be?
The room will be 5x7m. Speakers will be along the 7m wall, in the middle so no too close walls on the sides.

Will your living room be open into other rooms ("open floorplan")? Just a normal room.

What attributes do you most want from your speaker system?
Actually, I use a passive preamp (tvc) which is very transparent but the max attenuation is - 48db. So I am afraid if I add high efficiency speakers that the min volume might be already too load.

Are there areas where you would be willing to compromise if necessary? Not more than 10k

Are you most interested in how the speakers sound when in the optimum "sweet spot" location, or in how they sound throughout the room, for people who may not be near the "sweet spot"?
That s a good question. I like both. On the one side, for critical listenings and testing gears, I am happy to enjoy sweet spot. But for everyday use I like something that make you feel the band is in the room. Plus, I often work at home, with classical or electro music at low volume, in that case sweet spot is not that important.

What sort of constraints (size, placement, etc.) do you need to take into account? My wife would kill me if I buy big magnepans... Something below 1.4meter high would be great. I think they will be max 1m far from the rear wall.

What speakers do you have now, if you don't mind? Currently I run neat motive sx2

What are some other speakers you like a lot?
I lack of experience, I downgrade my previous B&W CM10 to the neat motive sx2 as I found were better for my room and my test. A friend has kef reference 1 speakers and another has proac d20r. They both different but I like both... When I was a kid, my dad had bose 601 speakers. I liked them a lot as well. So I don't know exactly how to answer.

Is there anything else important that your speakers should do, or should NOT do?
The only thing which is important is that the speaker shall be good at low levels.

* * * *

Must confess that most of my experience is with large planars and with high-efficiency horns, both of with are impractical for your situation.

I think Don's suggestion of taking a look at the Revel line is an excellent one. Imo Revel's approach to design makes a lot of sense, though I have virtually no first-hand experience with them. Very good off-axis performance, which results in good sound over a wide area, and my instinct is that they would still sound very good at low levels, though I can't confirm this.

I was a dealer for Harbeth before becoming a manufacturer, and their Super HL5 Plus is very nice. If by any chance you find a good deal on the Monitor 40.2, that's a superb speaker. It seems to me that Harbeths tend to be popular among classical musicians who are also audiophiles.

I was also a dealer for Gradient. Extremely intelligent designs in my opinion, good sound over a wide area. I suggest the Gradient 1.4 or Revolution. Gradient is another line that classical musicians tend to like.

Two lines that I very likely would have become a dealer for are Amphion and Duevel. The Amphion Argon 7L might have a bit higher efficiency than would be ideal for your TVC preamp, but it's imo another very intelligent design.

The Duevel Bella Luna is an innovative omnidirectional design, which offers a different sort of presentation from the others, and is arguably a high-end extrapolation of the Bose 601 concept. The Duevels would excel at good sound throughout the room, and I also expect them to do well at very low volume levels given the type of high-frequency drivers they have (compression drivers).

To my ears a good omni has richer timbre than conventional speakers, and that rich timbre holds up throughout the room, but in my experience imaging when you are in the sweet spot is usually not as precise as what you'd get from a good pair of more conventional speakers. This is because the large amount of early reflections from an omni tend to degrade imaging a bit. (Tradeoffs, always tradeoffs.) However if you are able to diffuse that first reflection off the front wall, perhaps by using plants, that can help the imaging.

All of that being said, take the advice of a good dealer over mine.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Roger

I also recommend auditioning the Revel line. I have a pair of F206's in my living room system. I use them with a JBL Array 1400 sub. I really enjoy them. They image great have a large sweet spot and are unexpectedly very dynamic. They do a lot well I think they offer excellent balance of performance at a not break the bank price.

Rob

 

[Rogerfederer]

Thank you all for answers
It took me some time to read everything I could find on the Web. Unfortunately, due to covid-19 crisis, it is not possible to listen anything at that time.
So far, for many reasons, I have shortlisted the following:
- harbeth super hl5 +, I like the tiger ebony style but it is second hand or hard to find.
- Kef r7, easiest to find for a listen around where I live
- Revel f206 or f208, hard to find in my country for a test...

If any of you have some experience and could share the main differences to expect between this speakers that would be great.
Roger

 

[Rogerfederer]

Price range?

Revel F206, F226Be, F208, F228Be, F328Be, or Salon2 come to mind since I am running Revel after years of Maggies. There are so many great speakers in different "flavors" that you should really audition them yourself.

Thanks very much for your answer. I have still not made my choice but I am very seriously looking at Revel. How big is the difference between f206 and f226be? (as price is quite higher for the f226be) same question for f208 and f228be.

 

[DonH50]

Thanks very much for your answer. I have still not made my choice but I am very seriously looking at Revel. How big is the difference between f206 and f226be? (as price is quite higher for the f226be) same question for f208 and f228be.

Sorry, I have not heard the new Be series (or not enough to matter), so could not say. There are threads on places like AVS discussing the differences. My gut feel is most there who auditioned both thought the Be series worth the extra money, but I would not say it was overwhelming, and as you say the cost difference is substantial. The Be series tweaks crossovers and other things (I think drivers may be newer though am not sure; the waveguide is newer) in addition to changing to a beryllium tweeter. My guess is a small improvement but not sure I would notice if they were not side-by-side. If I did not know about the Be line I would be happy with the regular line. Depends on your budget...

 

[Rogerfederer]

In fact, I have narrowed my researches on revel f206 and dynaudio evoke 50. Anythoughts would be welcome.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Check out the Spatial X3 open baffle speakers.....extremely transparent, powered woofer, easy to drive. Will blow you mind. Nice looking too.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

In fact, I have narrowed my researches on revel f206 and dynaudio evoke 50. Anythoughts would be welcome.

I don't know how useful this will be, as I have heard neither speaker. So take the opinion of someone who has heard either - or ideally both - over mine.

Soundstage's "listening window" measurement of the Revel F6 is, in my opinion, remarkably good.

Eyeballing its curves beyond 30 degrees off-axis, I'm not sure this is an ideal "sounds very good throughout the room" speaker, but at least it seems to be a "sounds very good in the sweet spot" speaker.

I really couldn't find much about the Dynaudio... the few "reviews" I found seemed to be re-workings of Dynaudio's claim that the speaker sounds bigger than it really is.

I will admit to being a fan of Harman's psychoacoustic research which informs design choices in the Revel, such as the gently downward-sloping frequency response curve and the shallow "waveguide" around the tweeter. In my opinion and experience these both bode well for long-term listening enjoyment, as opposed to a speaker which sounds initially very impressive but becomes fatiguing over time. I am NOT saying there's anything wrong with the Dynaudio, as I just don't know what design choices they made (apart from what I can see in a photo); but I do think there are some important things right about the Revel.

So if I had to choose between them based on the information that I have easy access to, I'd choose the Revel.

 

[Rogerfederer]

.

Soundstage's "listening window" measurement of the Revel F6 is, in my opinion, remarkably good.

Eyeballing its curves beyond 30 degrees off-axis, I'm not sure this is an ideal "sounds very good throughout the room" speaker, but at least it seems to be a "sounds very good in the sweet spot" speaker.

I really couldn't find much about the Dynaudio... the few "reviews" I found seemed to be re-workings of Dynaudio's claim that the speaker sounds bigger than it really is.

I will admit to being a fan of Harman's psychoacoustic research which informs design choices in the Revel, such as the gently downward-sloping frequency response curve and the shallow "waveguide" around the tweeter. In my opinion and experience these both bode well for long-term listening enjoyment, as opposed to a speaker which sounds initially very impressive but becomes fatiguing over time. I am NOT saying there's anything wrong with the Dynaudio, as I just don't know what design choices they made (apart from what I can see in a photo); but I do think there are some important things right about the Revel.

So if I had to choose between them based on the information that I have easy access to, I'd choose the Revel.

Thanks for your message.

F206 have good measurements, you are absolutely right. Their response is quite flat on all the frequency band. But the slop falls quickly below 100Hz. I am afraid they may lack of bass and I have no plan for a subwoofer. On the other side, my room is not that big. Would that be sufficient for bass performance?

 

[Rogerfederer]

To complement my previous post, here are some measurements of the evoke 50. I don't know how reliable and comparable to Soundstage's ones but It does not seem very flat (source: audio.com.pl)

 

[Rogerfederer]

Duke, based on your recommendations (c.f. post #4), I have also had a look at Amphion Argon 7LS which have an elegant appearance. I have found some measurements for the 7L on soundstage (not the LS). It seems to go quite far in the lows! I would be very interested to have your thoughts about the comparison with the Revel F206.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Here is a source of good data on some of these speakers and take note of the radiation characteristics as well as the on-axis FR.
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/
FWIW, I highly recommend the F206 which I use for surrounds.

 

[JackD201]

I like Duke's Gradient recommendation.

 

[Rogerfederer]

Here is a source of good data on some of these speakers and take note of the radiation characteristics as well as the on-axis FR.
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/
FWIW, I highly recommend the F206 which I use for surrounds.

Thanks for your answer
On your point of view, do you think there is a risk of a lack of bass if used alone without any sub?

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for going to the trouble of digging up those frequency response curves!

And apologies in advance for this reply probably being a lot more geeky than necessary... and please remember, this is me listening with my eyes!

In general the ear tends to hear broad average trends, rather than focusing on nasty-looking little peaks and dips that the eye is drawn to. In general peaks are more audible than dips. And somewhat counter-intuitively, "flat" actually sounds too bright (like there's too much top end), while a gently downward-sloping curve (like the Revel has) tends to sound "flat" or neutral.

Imo the dip in the middle of the Evoke 50's curve is wide enough to be audible, BUT my guess is that rather than sounding like the upper midrang/lower treble is lacking in energy, it may well sound like the top end has a bit too much energy, particularly if your room is highly reflective.

Something else that I try to take into account is what's happening off-axis, and the crossover between the midrange and tweeter on the Evoke 50 is 3.5 kHz. Since a 1" tweeter has much wider dispersion (at least down near the crossover region) than a 6" cone, we can expect a lot of extra off-axis energy in the same region where the on-axis response is rising back up after that dip. In my opinion this is not a good thing; my preference would be to actually have an on-axis dip at the bottom end of the tweeter's range, to sort of "balance out" the extra off-axis energy in that region. So, listening with my eyes, I'd take the Revels or the Amphions over the Dynaudios.

Here's Soundstage's measurement page for the Amphions:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

My eyes can't help but notice that 750 Hz peak; the 150 Hz jog is almost certainly a port resonance artifact present in the Argon 7 which will not be present in the Argon 7LS (which uses a passive radiator). I looked at a bunch of online commentary and found nothing that could be attributable to issues in the 750 Hz region. The worst I found was someone who wasn't impressed with them at an audio show, and said they sounded boomy. He also said an open-baffle speaker at the same show sounded boomy, so I'm inclined to blame the hotel room.

Overall the Amphion's on-axis response is pretty good and I like the gently downward-sloping trend of its "listening window" curve, but what really stands out to me is its off-axis response. Look at the off-axis curves, in particular the 45-75 degree curves, and note how smoothly they fall off as we move off-axis.

Here is Soundstage's measurement page for the Revels:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

The Revels have superb on-axis response and "listening window" response, but in the 45-75 degree off-axis curves you can see that there is excess off-axis energy at the bottom end of the tweeter's range. Actually this trend is present in the 30-degree curve as well but it's harder to see because those curves overlay one another somewhat. To their great credit the Revels don't have ANY problematic areas, aside from the increased energy off-axis energy which starts showing up around 1.5 kHz and peaks around 3 kHz, and this is normal (though imo undesirable).

Just for fun, glance back at the Amphion's off-axis curves and see if you can easily tell where the crossover is. It's not at all obvious! This bodes well for both coherence and long-term enjoyment.
What we hear is essentially a "weighted average" of the first-arrival sound and all of the reflections, with the earliest reflections mattering more than the later ones. The earliest reflections will be from well off-axis, from the floor and ceiling and side walls. The off-axis curves give us the most insight into what those early reflections are like. Ideally they sound very much like the first-arrival sound, but not as loud, and typically with a bit less top-end energy. The Amphions do this very well. In my opinion this matters a lot, but I am in the minority - most designers do not give high priority to what's happening off-axis.

So imo this is a classic case of each speaker doing different things extremely well, reflecting different design philospophies and priorities. I do not think there is a wrong choice between the two. I think both are designed for long-term enjoyment rather than for impressing in a quick audition, with the Revels probably being a bit better in and near the "sweet spot", and the Amphions probably being a bit better from well outside the "sweet spot".

Since you mentioned bass extension, it looks to me like the Amphions DO surpass the Revels in low-end extension, while the Revels have more upper bass energy. I suspect that the Amphions' bottom end + normal boundary reinforcement from a small-to-medium room = really nice bass response.

Kal Rubinson OWNS the Revels, which means that he voted for them with his wallet, and you can't get much more informed than Kal, nor much more sincere than a wallet-vote. Take his advice over mine!

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Here is a source of good data on some of these speakers and take note of the radiation characteristics as well as the on-axis FR.
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/
FWIW, I highly recommend the F206 which I use for surrounds.

Thank you very much for that link. I followed it to the "All Spinorama data index", which will keep me entertained for hours!

 

[Rogerfederer]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for going to the trouble of digging up those frequency response curves!

And apologies in advance for this reply probably being a lot more geeky than necessary... and please remember, this is me listening with my eyes!

In general the ear tends to hear broad average trends, rather than focusing on nasty-looking little peaks and dips that the eye is drawn to. In general peaks are more audible than dips. And somewhat counter-intuitively, "flat" actually sounds too bright (like there's too much top end), while a gently downward-sloping curve (like the Revel has) tends to sound "flat" or neutral.

Imo the dip in the middle of the Evoke 50's curve is wide enough to be audible, BUT my guess is that rather than sounding like the upper midrang/lower treble is lacking in energy, it may well sound like the top end has a bit too much energy, particularly if your room is highly reflective.

Something else that I try to take into account is what's happening off-axis, and the crossover between the midrange and tweeter on the Evoke 50 is 3.5 kHz. Since a 1" tweeter has much wider dispersion (at least down near the crossover region) than a 6" cone, we can expect a lot of extra off-axis energy in the same region where the on-axis response is rising back up after that dip. In my opinion this is not a good thing; my preference would be to actually have an on-axis dip at the bottom end of the tweeter's range, to sort of "balance out" the extra off-axis energy in that region. So, listening with my eyes, I'd take the Revels or the Amphions over the Dynaudios.

Here's Soundstage's measurement page for the Amphions:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

My eyes can't help but notice that 750 Hz peak; the 150 Hz jog is almost certainly a port resonance artifact present in the Argon 7 which will not be present in the Argon 7LS (which uses a passive radiator). I looked at a bunch of online commentary and found nothing that could be attributable to issues in the 750 Hz region. The worst I found was someone who wasn't impressed with them at an audio show, and said they sounded boomy. He also said an open-baffle speaker at the same show sounded boomy, so I'm inclined to blame the hotel room.

Overall the Amphion's on-axis response is pretty good and I like the gently downward-sloping trend of its "listening window" curve, but what really stands out to me is its off-axis response. Look at the off-axis curves, in particular the 45-75 degree curves, and note how smoothly they fall off as we move off-axis.

Here is Soundstage's measurement page for the Revels:

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

The Revels have superb on-axis response and "listening window" response, but in the 45-75 degree off-axis curves you can see that there is excess off-axis energy at the bottom end of the tweeter's range. Actually this trend is present in the 30-degree curve as well but it's harder to see because those curves overlay one another somewhat. To their great credit the Revels don't have ANY problematic areas, aside from the increased energy off-axis energy which starts showing up around 1.5 kHz and peaks around 3 kHz, and this is normal (though imo undesirable).

Just for fun, glance back at the Amphion's off-axis curves and see if you can easily tell where the crossover is. It's not at all obvious! This bodes well for both coherence and long-term enjoyment.
What we hear is essentially a "weighted average" of the first-arrival sound and all of the reflections, with the earliest reflections mattering more than the later ones. The earliest reflections will be from well off-axis, from the floor and ceiling and side walls. The off-axis curves give us the most insight into what those early reflections are like. Ideally they sound very much like the first-arrival sound, but not as loud, and typically with a bit less top-end energy. The Amphions do this very well. In my opinion this matters a lot, but I am in the minority - most designers do not give high priority to what's happening off-axis.

So imo this is a classic case of each speaker doing different things extremely well, reflecting different design philospophies and priorities. I do not think there is a wrong choice between the two. I think both are designed for long-term enjoyment rather than for impressing in a quick audition, with the Revels probably being a bit better in and near the "sweet spot", and the Amphions probably being a bit better from well outside the "sweet spot".

Since you mentioned bass extension, it looks to me like the Amphions DO surpass the Revels in low-end extension, while the Revels have more upper bass energy. I suspect that the Amphions' bottom end + normal boundary reinforcement from a small-to-medium room = really nice bass response.

Kal Rubinson OWNS the Revels, which means that he voted for them with his wallet, and you can't get much more informed than Kal, nor much more sincere than a wallet-vote. Take his advice over mine!

Thanks so much Duke for your great analysis.
Last but not least, price is also a parameter to consider. Revel are more expensive in Europe than in US (+33%) which makes the Amphion (Finish brand) also more attractive and easier to negociate. So I will likely give a try to Agron 7LS, I can have a 14 days trial.
I have also to admit that I am very curious about this the passive radiators.