Spectral SDR-4000SV

ack

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OK, apologies for the verbal distortions - pun intended. I still don't know what you meant, but it's OK, we can take it at face value, and move on.
 

PeterA

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You are probably right - the point being the same, though; that IF one is reality, the other one is a distortion.

Agreed. If one sounds real, and the other does not, the other is distorted or something else is wrong. However, Franz or someone (EDIT: it was Bonzo) mentioned above that some gear, for example SET amplifiers, add a type of distortion that makes a recording sound more real. And by extension, that distortion contributes to us having the impression that the system or sound is more convincing or believable. That was an excellent point that he made.

The "reality" is the live performance in one context and the recording is "reality" in another context. We can't know how close we are to the recording unless we were there when it was made, so how can we say it is real? The live performance is real to us for obvious reasons, but a system's presentation sounding real is reliant on one's memory, and may thus be unreliable. It then becomes subjective and personal.

I don't think one can refer to ANY audio component as "reality". An audio system is just too complex a system to diagnose to that level, but that is another discussion topic entirely. I think you were making this point to Al when you asked, paraphrasing here, that if a system (or component) is perfect, what does it mean when something better comes along. All good points and interesting questions to ask, imo.
 
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PeterA

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OK, apologies for the verbal distortions - pun intended. I still don't know what you meant, but it's OK, we can take it at face value, and move on.

Well, at this point, I can't keep track of what you are asking me to explain as I still think you are thinking of something Al wrote. If you refer to one of my actual posts, I will try to answer you more directly. But if you want me to try to explain something, I will guess at what it is you are referring to.

The glaring difference between the Rossini and the other two digital units (one a DAC, and one an all in one player) was the way the three portrayed the musical note. The Rossini presented the note, and then by extension, the musical phrase and more, in a natural and continuous way. The fundamental was clear and defined, followed by its harmonics. There was no delay or gap between the two, as in real instruments playing. The other units broke down the musical note so that it could be heard in its various parts, discontinuous and bringing attention to it. I heard it as an unnatural, artificial sound, not occurring in nature. I became aware that something was not right and thus focused on the artifact rather than the music.

With the Rossini, everything just sounded more real and like music. It reminded me of the best analog that I have heard.
 

ack

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The fundamental was clear and defined, followed by its harmonics.

Well, for starters, there is no such thing as harmonics following a fundamental - it's all one complex waveform, with the fundamental and higher harmonics and subharmonics encoded in the same complex waveform; that's basic physics. So your description of the players' sounds is ever more confusing. I think we should really get back on topic.
 

PeterA

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Well, for starters, there is no such thing as harmonics following a fundamental - it's all one complex waveform, with the fundamental and higher harmonics and subharmonics encoded in the same complex waveform; that's basic physics. So your description of the players' sounds is ever more confusing. I think we should really get back on topic.

Ack, do you mean the harmonics of a note occur at the same instant as the fundamental? I realize they are the same complex waveform, but I thought that the two have a temporal relationship. That is, the harmonics can not occur without the fundamental occurring first. A note is struck, or plucked, but one hears a continuous sound originating with the notes fundamental frequency and ending in the harmonics. Am I mistaken? Perhaps a subject for another thread.

We can get back on topic. The topic, I think, has recently become the Rossini Player, which you introduced with your report in this thread about the Spectral SDR-4000SV. I've not heard the new Spectral player yet, but I hope to do so soon. And I look forward to you reporting on what the Spectral sounds like in your system.
 
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microstrip

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Ack, do you mean the harmonics of a note occur at the same instant as the fundamental? I realize they are the same complex waveform, but I thought that the two have a temporal relationship. That is, the harmonics can not occur without the fundamental occurring first. A note is struck, or plucked, but one hears a continuous sound originating with the notes fundamental frequency and ending in the harmonics. Am I mistaken? Perhaps a subject for another thread.

We can get back on topic. The topic, I think, has recently become the Rossini Player, which you introduced with your report in this thread about the Spectral SDR-4000SV. I've not heard the new Spectral player yet, but I hope to do so soon. And I look forward to you reporting on what the Spectral sounds like in your system.

Peter,

Acoustic instruments emit a complex spectra, that has a temporal evolution, and can not be described in terms of the simple harmonics. The use of the word harmonics in music is really much broader and less strict than in physics. IMHO no decent CD player can change significantly the harmonic spectra of a sound - however minimal details can change our perception of its temporal evolution, creating the idea you refer. I understood your words in such sense - not in the physical sense, but as description of an effect I have also referred in the past. I remember Harry Pearson wrote essays about similar things, explaining that it was a fundamental aspect for "coherency".
 

PeterA

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Peter,

Acoustic instruments emit a complex spectra, that has a temporal evolution, and can not be described in terms of the simple harmonics. The use of the word harmonics in music is really much broader and less strict than in physics. IMHO no decent CD player can change significantly the harmonic spectra of a sound - however minimal details can change our perception of its temporal evolution, creating the idea you refer. I understood your words in such sense - not in the physical sense, but as description of an effect I have also referred in the past. I remember Harry Pearson wrote essays about similar things, explaining that it was a fundamental aspect for "coherency".

micro, thanks for that clarification. The effect to which I am referring, I also hear when adjusting VTA on my tonearm. The "impression" to me is that these adjustments effect the perception of the continuity or nature of the musical note, emphasizing one aspect of it over another, or breaking it up to where it sounds unreal or as a construct. I'm sure that others hearing the same digital components at Goodwins that day might have described their differences in other terms. As we know, describing in words our sonic impressions, is not easy, and I am certainly no expert in these matters.
 

ack

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Ack, do you mean the harmonics of a note occur at the same instant as the fundamental? I realize they are the same complex waveform, but I thought that the two have a temporal relationship. That is, the harmonics can not occur without the fundamental occurring first. A note is struck, or plucked, but one hears a continuous sound originating with the notes fundamental frequency and ending in the harmonics. Am I mistaken? Perhaps a subject for another thread.

Refer back to the emails I have sent you over the years, where we have also discussed what truly happens with SRA/VTA et al - not the topic of this thread. If I have not been able to explain the relationships in literally dozens of emails, I won't be able to do it here either. Back on topic - is the lack of presence in the Rossini demo at Goodwin's the only shortcoming of that audition? Were there really no other shortcomings whatsoever?
 

PeterA

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Refer back to the emails I have sent you over the years, where we have also discussed what truly happens with SRA/VTA et al - not the topic of this thread. If I have not been able to explain the relationships in literally dozens of emails, I won't be able to do it here either. Back on topic - is the lack of presence in the Rossini demo at Goodwin's the only shortcoming of that audition? Were there really no other shortcomings whatsoever?

No worries. I don't keep old emails and I'm admittedly too dense to grasp the technical terms of your lessons. I will continue to describe imperfectly what I hear about certain sonic differences and adjustments if they convey meaning to others though are incorrect in an absolute technical sense. Micro explained that well in the post above.

I will refer back to this thread from time to time for new information about the Spectral SDR-400SV and move over to the Rossini thread to further discuss that particular DAC. My comprehensive impressions of its sonics and those of the rest of the system were posted in that thread when they were fresh in my mind from that remarkable afternoon audition.
 

fas42

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No worries. I don't keep old emails and I'm admittedly too dense to grasp the technical terms of your lessons. I will continue to describe imperfectly what I hear about certain sonic differences and adjustments if they convey meaning to others though are incorrect in an absolute technical sense. Micro explained that well in the post above.he system were posted in that thread when they were fresh in my mind from that remarkable afternoon audition.
Peter, the way I see it is that the sound is either 'right', or it's 'wrong' - with the former the sense of what of you're hearing just hangs together, always makes sense at the emotional level, never jars or disturbs; but when it's not working that well then the analytical part of one's brain kicks in, and part of the listening is constantly dissecting what you're hearing, making judgements of whether some aspect is of a good enough standard. Personally :), I prefer to always be in the first space - and always work towards getting the system in front of me to that place ...
 

PeterA

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Peter, the way I see it is that the sound is either 'right', or it's 'wrong' - with the former the sense of what of you're hearing just hangs together, always makes sense at the emotional level, never jars or disturbs; but when it's not working that well then the analytical part of one's brain kicks in, and part of the listening is constantly dissecting what you're hearing, making judgements of whether some aspect is of a good enough standard. Personally :), I prefer to always be in the first space - and always work towards getting the system in front of me to that place ...

Yes, in my experience, this is precisely what happens. It is what I refer to as "natural". You get lost in the music and don't focus on the hifi parts of the sound.
 

FrantzM

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Yes, in my experience, this is precisely what happens. It is what I refer to as "natural". You get lost in the music and don't focus on the hifi parts of the sound.

People

The youth with her/his on his cheap earbuds achieve the same, Does it mean the reproduction was "natural"?
I have come to term with the fact that this forum is foremost subjectivist...but people! aren't we losing ourselves here in taking our (fleeting, ever changing, unreliable) state of mind for a reliable, stable metric?
Question was rhetorical. I don't need an answer , just that we ponder a bit and try to make our observations more useful to others.
 

PeterA

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People

The youth with her/his on his cheap earbuds achieve the same, Does it mean the reproduction was "natural"?
I have come to term with the fact that this forum is foremost subjectivist...but people! aren't we losing ourselves here in taking our (fleeting, ever changing, unreliable) state of mind for a reliable, stable metric?
Question was rhetorical. I don't need an answer , just that we ponder a bit and try to make our observations more useful to others.

Frantz

Yes, youth enjoy their earbuds, and I can enjoy the radio in my truck when playing rock music from my childhood. What we are talking about here is audiophiles who listen critically when auditioning two $20K+ DACs in a high end audio dealership. When one presents the music in a discontinuous way with audible artifacts and the other in a more natural, convincing way allowing one to focus more on the music than on the artifacts, I tend to agree with Frank when he suggests that one is "right" and the other is "wrong". Perhaps it should be "more right" and "more wrong".

Of course, those conditions are set up for subjective evaluation, and yes, our state of minds are fleeting, unreliable, and ever changing. And some of us rely on our memories of what actual instruments sound like. Are you suggesting that Goodwins set up a bunch of test equipment to evaluate the gear rather than having potential customers bring in their own music CDs? Measurements that may not even reflect what is heard? Those questions are not rhetorical.
 

FrantzM

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PeterA

No, I do not reject your impressions or anybody's else . I object however to this statement, I am quoting it again

It is what I refer to as "natural". It is what I refer to as "natural". You get lost in the music and don't focus on the hifi parts of the sound.parts of the sound.

I repeat that this act has noting to do with the "naturalness" of the reproduction, because if it were to happen while listening to a Bose Wave Radio, you wouldn't dare describe the reproduction as "natural". It is a person, you in this case reacting to the music, not the sound. I bet you wouldn't get yourself lost in rap that way however good the system could be ... We need to make this effort IMO. The "lost in the music" thing is a facility we need to avoid. All that IMO, I apologize for being undiplomatic but I needed to get it off my chest...
 

PeterA

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PeterA

No, I do not reject your impressions or anybody's else . I object however to this statement, I am quoting it again



I repeat that this act has noting to do with the "naturalness" of the reproduction, because if it were to happen while listening to a Bose Wave Radio, you wouldn't dare describe the reproduction as "natural". It is a person, you in this case reacting to the music, not the sound. I bet you wouldn't get yourself lost in rap that way however good the system could be ... We need to make this effort IMO. The "lost in the music" thing is a facility we need to avoid. All that IMO, I apologize for being undiplomatic but I needed to get it off my chest...

Frantz, Sure, I'm reacting to the music. But it is about expectations. For me at least, it has much to do with the mindset going into it. I don't enter my truck wanting to evaluate the sound of its music system. I'm listening to the music, or talk radio, or whatever it is. I turn on the radio, and if I like the music, I get lost in it, seemingly similarly to the youth with their earbuds.

Making an appointment to audition two expensive DACs with an audio buddy to see if we hear differences and prefer one over the other, that is a different experience. Initially, at least, that is about the sound, not the music. After the initial critical listen, it is pretty easy to hear if it sounds "right" or "wrong". I think this is Frank's point, and I agree with it. If it is "right", then I start to enjoy the music that I have brought in to hear. It is easy to switch over. If it is "wrong", I tend to continue to focus on the artifact or whatever it is that prevents me from enjoying the music.

It is difficult to say how conscious this switch is. But that is just me and what I think is happening during these auditions, as I sit hear and type this response. The same happens when I hear a friend's system for the first time, or when a new component has been added.

I don't know what happens to others ("people") in similar situations. Frank's comment just seems to correspond with my experience, that's all.
 
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microstrip

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Yes, in my experience, this is precisely what happens. It is what I refer to as "natural". You get lost in the music and don't focus on the hifi parts of the sound.

We could have guessed that this sentence would be isolated from the debate and poster, ignoring all that has been previously said and the thread we had recently on "natural" sound, and then used as an example of something with little meaning ...

And my apologies, when I read in "my experience" in your post I do not think about "youth with her/his on his cheap earbuds", unless you tell me you found the famous fountain that Juan Ponce de León has bee looking for in the early XVI century ... :)
 

microstrip

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People

The youth with her/his on his cheap earbuds achieve the same, Does it mean the reproduction was "natural"?
I have come to term with the fact that this forum is foremost subjectivist...but people! aren't we losing ourselves here in taking our (fleeting, ever changing, unreliable) state of mind for a reliable, stable metric?
Question was rhetorical. I don't need an answer , just that we ponder a bit and try to make our observations more useful to others.

As you do not want an answer I will only ask a question. Do you want us to write in Esperanto? ;)
 

fas42

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Making an appointment to audition two expensive DACs with an audio buddy to see if we hear differences and prefer one over the other, that is a different experience. Initially, at least, that is about the sound, not the music. After the initial critical listen, it is pretty easy to hear if it sounds "right" or "wrong". I think this is Frank's point, and I agree with it. If it is "right", then I start to enjoy the music that I have brought in to hear. It is easy to switch over. If it is "wrong", I tend to continue to focus on the artifact or whatever it is that prevents me from enjoying the music.
Indeed it is my point :cool: ... I'm in this game to enjoy the music, not obsess about the technical performance of the equipment - and one aspect of that is to be able to listen to 'flawed' recordings while extracting the maximum pleasure from the experience. I find the latter especially rewarding, because of the musical values inherent in the performance, or the complexity of the ideas explored in the piece. If the playback equipment gets in the way, because it is emphasising every tiny irregularity, then to me it's worthless ...
 

Geert1962

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Since a few weeks I own the SDR 4000SV and I can tell you 'red book cd's won't come better.' Amazing sound for a lot of money. For me the best buy since ages. If you have the money: buy one.
 

MadFloyd

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Since a few weeks I own the SDR 4000SV and I can tell you 'red book cd's won't come better.' Amazing sound for a lot of money. For me the best buy since ages. If you have the money: buy one.

Can you also use it as a DAC?
 

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