State-of-the-Art Digital

Al M.

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If you look back through the nostalgia haze of prior decades, you'll find a whole heap load of crud then too. There is a lot of great music produced today-- just not in the mainstream (as it's always been).

Very true. On both counts.
 

morricab

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+1 the mediums are no longer the issue if music is actually the focus. When sound is the focus the mediums become a clear issue of preference.

Some people are into sound... so some people are then into analogue... and some people are into digital... and then some are just into music. It’s always fairly easy to see who are who in this. None of this is good or bad, it’s just preference.

Umm...I don't really agree with this or else there would be no point for anything beyond the bare minimum to hear clearly the music. The pursuit of the "best" you can is that one hopes to achieve a closer connection to music with improved sound quality. Thus the drive for ever higher resolution media and equipment. Of course the two (musical enjoyment and audio resolution ) do not go hand in hand like one would hope and it can even regress the enjoyment if certain subtle distortions that are dissonant to human hearing despite higher objective and subjective resolution.
 
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the sound of Tao

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Umm...I don't really agree with this or else there would be no point for anything beyond the bare minimum to hear clearly the music. The pursuit of the "best" you can is that one hopes to achieve a closer connection to music with improved sound quality. Thus the drive for ever higher resolution media and equipment. Of course the two (musical enjoyment and audio resolution ) do not go hand in hand like one would hope and it can even regress the enjoyment if certain subtle distortions that are dissonant to human hearing despite higher objective and subjective resolution.
Uhmmm, I’m not even sure I understand what you mean Brad ;).

I do believe that there is specific focus for some along specific gear formats but I believe this is purely a sonic determination. There is a tipping point into musical happiness that is possible with all the formats.

I’m not saying a crap system is sufficient. I’m just saying that sometimes we are making choices based upon sound and at times we are making determinations based upon musical connection. This is a moving target. These things can be enmeshed but not in a linear way. But yes, we are in phases of development and nothing is static. It’s about shifting priorities.

My current focus and primary determinant is in musical connection. It may change but I doubt it... I may just be too old to go back for another round lol
 
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Al M.

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Uhmmm, I’m not even sure I understand what you mean Brad ;).

I do believe that there is specific focus for some along specific gear formats but I believe this is purely a sonic determination. There is a tipping point into musical happiness that is possible with all the formats.

I’m not saying a crap system is sufficient. I’m just saying that sometimes we are making choices based upon sound and at times we are making determinations based upon musical connection. This is a moving target. These things can be enmeshed but not in a linear way. But yes, we are in phases of development and nothing is static. It’s about shifting priorities.

My current focus and primary determinant is in musical connection. It may change but I doubt it... I may just be too old to go back for another round lol

And talking about musical connection, you also have to look at what is even available in which format. I happen to have listened this past weekend to a bunch of music that simply is not available on vinyl, and not in so called "high-res" format either. It was all in high resolution Redbook digital. And I tremendously enjoyed it.

That solves the format issue for you right there. You can't make a musical connection in other formats to music that is not available in those formats.
 

acousticsguru

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And talking about musical connection, you also have to look at what is even available in which format. I happen to have listened this past weekend to a bunch of music that simply is not available on vinyl, and not in so called "high-res" format either. It was all in high resolution Redbook digital. And I tremendously enjoyed it.

That solves the format issue for you right there. You can't make a musical connection in other formats to music that is not available in those formats.

Personally, my buying decisions are based on this. Those who, like me, are primarily listening to classical music (even if not exclusively), including historical, won't be satisfied listening to a limited selection of audiophile recordings on a system that excels at playing back audiophile recordings at the cost of 99% of available music. Not long ago, at an audiophile acquaintance's house, I asked him to put on a historical recording as we were discussing interpretive tendencies - within a minute or so, he turned it off saying "I can't listen to that", and he wasn't referring to the music-making, but the fact that the historical recording sounded pretty vile on his very nice system (horns, tubes, sounds great as long as the recording quality is up there). I personally wouldn't want a system that dictates what I can or cannot listen to. Lots of music I like may never become available in any high-resolution format - in fact, there's some I had to wait for for years to make its way to RBCD, where I may not live to hear the same recording in another remastering, good or bad.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 

morricab

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Uhmmm, I’m not even sure I understand what you mean Brad ;).

I do believe that there is specific focus for some along specific gear formats but I believe this is purely a sonic determination. There is a tipping point into musical happiness that is possible with all the formats.

I’m not saying a crap system is sufficient. I’m just saying that sometimes we are making choices based upon sound and at times we are making determinations based upon musical connection. This is a moving target. These things can be enmeshed but not in a linear way. But yes, we are in phases of development and nothing is static. It’s about shifting priorities.

My current focus and primary determinant is in musical connection. It may change but I doubt it... I may just be too old to go back for another round lol

Actually, based on your response it seems you did understand me..:D

The people that I know who really only care about music are perfectly fine with what we would consider "crap" systems (including all manner of blue tooth "pills" , giveaway earbuds etc.) and this includes professional musicians in some cases. But to say that people concerned with gear are not as concerned with music but only how it "sounds" is not necessarily true or fair to those of us who really care about both (I see no reason why there needs to be any kind of mutual exclusivity in the two desires.) Some people don't need much resolution or high fidelity in order to get pleasure and meaning in music and some need to have it as close to "real" as we can in order to evoke the same emotional responses as live. Some people don't get any emotional response from live and only in their hyper resolved hifi (this group MIGHT be more concerned with gear and how it sounds ;))
 

the sound of Tao

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And talking about musical connection, you also have to look at what is even available in which format. I happen to have listened this past weekend to a bunch of music that simply is not available on vinyl, and not in so called "high-res" format either. It was all in high resolution Redbook digital. And I tremendously enjoyed it.

That solves the format issue for you right there. You can't make a musical connection in other formats to music that is not available in those formats.
I’m like you Al in that (pre current disruption) I listened fairly regularly to both high quality analogue (in friend‘s systems) and digital and in terms of musical enjoyment I don’t see a lack of engagement at all in either if the systems are disposed to making great musical connection. When we’re listening to great music the focus of appreciation is essentially the music.

It can be argued that broadness of musical education can be a potential of accessibility and that digital via streaming especially can here be a great advantage but truth for me is that music appreciation is an accumulated richness that comes from recorded and live experiences of music that simply is format agnostic in the bigger picture.

Music lovers can have such a great adventure in life, there is phenomenal amounts of music available in life and that being caught up in any restricted approach to listening to music is essentially non advantageous in purely musical terms.
 

morricab

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Personally, my buying decisions are based on this. Those who, like me, are primarily listening to classical music (even if not exclusively), including historical, won't be satisfied listening to a limited selection of audiophile recordings on a system that excels at playing back audiophile recordings at the cost of 99% of available music. Not long ago, at an audiophile acquaintance's house, I asked him to put on a historical recording as we were discussing interpretive tendencies - within a minute or so, he turned it off saying "I can't listen to that", and he wasn't referring to the music-making, but the fact that the historical recording sounded pretty vile on his very nice system (horns, tubes, sounds great as long as the recording quality is up there). I personally wouldn't want a system that dictates what I can or cannot listen to. Lots of music I like may never become available in any high-resolution format - in fact, there's some I had to wait for for years to make its way to RBCD, where I may not live to hear the same recording in another remastering, good or bad.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

The sound quality of the recording should be noticeable but not necessarily unlistenable...of course everyone's threshold on this is different. I personally could listen all day to 78s on Grammophone (although those things are quite loud) because I am fascinated with the performances of the time but I know some who would never consider it because the sound is too "low-fi". In some respects it is (noise, bandwidth, tonal coloration) but in two important ways they are superb (dynamics in the mid band and immediacy). That said, I prefer a good live recording to give me the "I am there" feeling of a great performance.
 

the sound of Tao

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Actually, based on your response it seems you did understand me..:D

The people that I know who really only care about music are perfectly fine with what we would consider "crap" systems (including all manner of blue tooth "pills" , giveaway earbuds etc.) and this includes professional musicians in some cases. But to say that people concerned with gear are not as concerned with music but only how it "sounds" is not necessarily true or fair to those of us who really care about both (I see no reason why there needs to be any kind of mutual exclusivity in the two desires.) Some people don't need much resolution or high fidelity in order to get pleasure and meaning in music and some need to have it as close to "real" as we can in order to evoke the same emotional responses as live. Some people don't get any emotional response from live and only in their hyper resolved hifi (this group MIGHT be more concerned with gear and how it sounds ;))
I genuinely didn’t get your original comment but that’s just my lack of comprehension on it Brad. But I wasn’t saying that people concerned with gear (I include myself here as a person with some good gear) don’t then necessarily care about music, just that it’s about priorities in determining whether a system works or not... for me musical connection is the primary and then summative review point.

Some people love gear that isn’t strong at musical connection but great in sonic appreciation. These things aren’t mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive. It’s just about individual goals and priorities.

I’d happily put my system up against yours in terms of either. My system does both sonics and musical connection, and these things are interconnected (but not proportionately so) and that what makes my system good for me is primarily that it sounds great but that it connects me to music better than anything. Some have sonic criteria as their primary goal... it’s all good but I struggle to stay enchanted with systems that can’t connect to music with a degree of immediacy simply because music is the alpha and the omega for me. We all have our own philosophies in system design, no harm in any of it.
 
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acousticsguru

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The sound quality of the recording should be noticeable but not necessarily unlistenable...of course everyone's threshold on this is different. I personally could listen all day to 78s on Grammophone (although those things are quite loud) because I am fascinated with the performances of the time but I know some who would never consider it because the sound is too "low-fi". In some respects it is (noise, bandwidth, tonal coloration) but in two important ways they are superb (dynamics in the mid band and immediacy). That said, I prefer a good live recording to give me the "I am there" feeling of a great performance.

We all wish our favorite music were available in great sound. In the meantime, I'll keep listening to my favorite music using gear that does a variety of recordings well (enough).

I may have told this story before, but I was once invited to a self-proclaimed audiophile's home who had all the latest "reference" components as reviewed by German magazines (you know which), and who literally owned only one audiophile test CD (that he probably got along with one of those magazine numbers). I distinctly remember the track of a Diesel train passing by, which was admittedly impressive. When I asked if he had any music, he went off and came back with his trophy wife's aerobic music CD.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 

PeterA

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We all wish our favorite music were available in great sound. In the meantime, I'll keep listening to my favorite music using gear that does a variety of recordings well (enough).

I may have told this story before, but I was once invited to a self-proclaimed audiophile's home who had all the latest "reference" components as reviewed by German magazines (you know which), and who literally owned only one audiophile test CD (that he probably got along with one of those magazine numbers). I distinctly remember the track of a Diesel train passing by, which was admittedly impressive. When I asked if he had any music, he went off and came back with his trophy wife's aerobic music CD.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Now that is pretty funny. Thank you.
 

microstrip

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(...) I distinctly remember the track of a Diesel train passing by, which was admittedly impressive.(...)

I thought it was always a steam train ... In this hobby we learn something new everyday! :)
 

Elliot G.

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I never took the statement "we are living in the golden age of audio" to mean "this is the best we can achieve", but rather "this is the best we've ever had it". And I also don't see it limited to DACs, but extended to amplification, speakers etc.

As I have made clear ;), I wholeheartedly agree with the statement.
Thanks Al
to the others.....
BTW I never said that this is the best possible but it is by far the best we have ever had. This is a broad statement and it is meant to be since there are lots of amazing products on the market and to be frank its all very good.
Some want to make statements yet have not listened. This is the "audiophile" at his worst. I see this a lot with those who want to talk much more than actually want to listen.
There is no best! There is no perfect, and may never be. It is very easy to sit back and be judgmental towards all that one doesn't know or probably can't afford.
Don't be afraid to learn you might get a pleasant surprise.
 

Rhapsody

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We all wish our favorite music were available in great sound.

I don't EVER put on a track of my favorite music from Qobuz and feel that it isn't quite there sonically. At this time I can find whatever music I want to listen to with streaming and I am 100% satisfied with the sonics and really don't think about them anymore. I focus on the music and forget the system(s).

This step occurred to be with the optimization of my network feeding into the Extreme server. Took me "over the top".
 
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morricab

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I genuinely didn’t get your original comment but that’s just my lack of comprehension on it Brad. But I wasn’t saying that people concerned with gear (I include myself here as a person with some good gear) don’t then necessarily care about music, just that it’s about priorities in determining whether a system works or not... for me musical connection is the primary and then summative review point.

Some people love gear that isn’t strong at musical connection but great in sonic appreciation. These things aren’t mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive. It’s just about individual goals and priorities.

I’d happily put my system up against yours in terms of either. My system does both sonics and musical connection, and these things are interconnected (but not proportionately so) and that what makes my system good for me is primarily that it sounds great but that it connects me to music better than anything. Some have sonic criteria as their primary goal... it’s all good but I struggle to stay enchanted with systems that can’t connect to music with a degree of immediacy simply because music is the alpha and the omega for me. We all have our own philosophies in system design, no harm in any of it.

Reread how you wrote and you will see what I mean I think. You were drawing some rather clear lines around groups of people that sounded (especially for you) somewhat simplistic.

Why would we need to put our systems up against each other? At least one of your systems (the PAP one) seems pretty interesting to me. The oher two not so much but if they all give you the same level of musical satisfaction then it's all good.
 

morricab

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We all wish our favorite music were available in great sound. In the meantime, I'll keep listening to my favorite music using gear that does a variety of recordings well (enough).

I may have told this story before, but I was once invited to a self-proclaimed audiophile's home who had all the latest "reference" components as reviewed by German magazines (you know which), and who literally owned only one audiophile test CD (that he probably got along with one of those magazine numbers). I distinctly remember the track of a Diesel train passing by, which was admittedly impressive. When I asked if he had any music, he went off and came back with his trophy wife's aerobic music CD.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

My systems cover a wide range as well without falling down on lesser recordings. I was listening to Moodog (Classical/Jazz), Beethoven piano Sonatas and Tool all in the same listening session!

Well, I have more music than I can probably listen to in this lifetime if I did an album a day (which I don't have time to do anymore) then I would still take 5-6 years to get through all the music...and that is not counting the streaming that is literally limitless!

What I do now if find music I really like on streaming and see if I can get it on LP. Two recent ones was Blue Maqams (Euro/middle eastern Jazz on ECM. From 2017 and already considered one of the great ECM releases) and Kind of Spain on ACT label by Wolfgang Haffner. Oh and Nik Baertsch Awase (2018) also on ECM...great music and great sound. I managed to get them all on LP and despite the fact that they are all most certainly recorded on digital the final sounds awesome and moving just that little bit more than the digital.
 

Empirical Audio

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I personally could listen all day to 78s on Grammophone (although those things are quite loud) because I am fascinated with the performances of the time but I know some who would never consider it because the sound is too "low-fi".

I was just listening to Louis Armstrong band and Billie Holiday on my Victor II yesterday. With the right needle, it need not to be too loud. The best needle I have found for SQ and minimizing wear is this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-SOFT-T...528418?hash=item548456b762:g:LD0AAOSwA3dYfOyS

Here is my modded Gramophone:


IMG_7295.JPG

BTW, I use a wide rubber-band to seal between the metal horn connector and the wooden horn. If you want to try one, PM me.
 

acousticsguru

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My systems cover a wide range as well without falling down on lesser recordings. I was listening to Moodog (Classical/Jazz), Beethoven piano Sonatas and Tool all in the same listening session!

Well, I have more music than I can probably listen to in this lifetime if I did an album a day (which I don't have time to do anymore) then I would still take 5-6 years to get through all the music...and that is not counting the streaming that is literally limitless!

What I do now if find music I really like on streaming and see if I can get it on LP. Two recent ones was Blue Maqams (Euro/middle eastern Jazz on ECM. From 2017 and already considered one of the great ECM releases) and Kind of Spain on ACT label by Wolfgang Haffner. Oh and Nik Baertsch Awase (2018) also on ECM...great music and great sound. I managed to get them all on LP and despite the fact that they are all most certainly recorded on digital the final sounds awesome and moving just that little bit more than the digital.

Makes great sense to me. It is, however, the reason I do not use streaming - I'm wondering at times if I'll ever manage to listen to all the music I have in form of files? To give an example, you've just now reminded me I have the high-resolution download of Awase, meant to listen to it, and never have. Just put it on now. As to the discussion which sounds better, analogue or digital, I guess that depends on the respective analogue and digital rig (in absolute terms, neither is perfect as far as I am concerned). I certainly see no reason why a good high-resolution digital master shouldn't sound good cut to LP. I love ECM, always have since my analogue days, except a couple recent Keith Jarrett live recordings appear to be suffering from dynamic compression. The first tracks of Awase sound great, a digital recording with impact, timbre, body and enormous warmth, can't say the different analogue setups I owned (no longer do, growing lazy with age) sounded more "analogue".

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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microstrip

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(...) What I do now if find music I really like on streaming and see if I can get it on LP. Two recent ones was Blue Maqams (Euro/middle eastern Jazz on ECM. From 2017 and already considered one of the great ECM releases) and Kind of Spain on ACT label by Wolfgang Haffner. Oh and Nik Baertsch Awase (2018) also on ECM...great music and great sound. I managed to get them all on LP and despite the fact that they are all most certainly recorded on digital the final sounds awesome and moving just that little bit more than the digital.

Blue Maqams was one the first Hirez downloads I bought. First because of music and later found that is has excellent sonics. Do you think that there is any valid reason to motivate people owning top DACs to get such digital recordings in LP?
 

Empirical Audio

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Makes great sense to me. It is, however, the reason I do not use streaming - I'm wondering at times if I'll ever manage to listen to all the music I have in form of files? David.

I also have a lot of music, however, there are some albums from my past that have one good track on them, so I don't have those albums on disk. The advantage of streaming is that you can put together playlists that include all of those great one-off tracks. There is also a lot of really old music, some from the 1940's and 1950's that I have in my streaming library. These playlists have been great for when I'm working with my hands. I don't do that much "critical listening" for pleasure anyway.
 

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