Stillpoints Ultra Vs - Wilson X1/Grand Slamms

allvinyl

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Apr 10, 2013
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Why would using Stillpoints under your speakers make setting them on top of carpet ok? Carpet will allow your speakers to rock back and forth unless you spike through it. That is not a desirable thing. Stillpoints work in the vertical plane which is not a problem for speaker drivers. If you get horizontal movement from the speakers rocking back and forth on the carpet then it will counteract what the speaker drivers are trying to do. This will result in muddled sound.

Regardless of the surface below the component, the performance of any of the Stillpoint Ultra products is all about proper loading of the technology pocket(s). Proper loading is accomplished on carpeted floors. Please consider the following. Don't reason yourself into a belief or position on this issue, but let your ears guide you (where have I heard that before? :) ). Rather, setup a A/B test in which you listen without the Stillpoints product and then with the product. I believe you will hear the benefit of isolation.

That said, there are still people with concerns. We want to address those concerns so we are in the development stage of testing spikes beginning with the Ultra 5 product. Using spikes should not prevent proper loading. Testing spikes came about as the result of a related project with the Ultra 5 and KEF Blade speakers. The shallow tap on the Blade cabinet (5 threads) presents an issue leveling the speaker when used with the standard Ultra 5 and adapter. We decided to provide additional leveling between the floor and bottom of the U5. We commissioned our machinist vendor to put a 1/2-20 tap in the bottom half of the U5 and then used our 1/2-20 to 1/4-20 adapter to attach a Ultra Base. Tightening the adapter into the U Base allows us to use the deep tap of the U5 bottom to provide the desired leveling adjustment distance. The logical progression was to commission spikes. We have prototypes but they need some redesign and we are working on that. I don't have a timetable for testing but rest assured I will report back to the forum once we have been able to test with spikes.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Sounds like hard work continues to come out of Stillpoints. Thanks for not resting on your laurels! Look forward to hearing about the spikes.
 

audioarcher

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May 6, 2012
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Regardless of the surface below the component, the performance of any of the Stillpoint Ultra products is all about proper loading of the technology pocket(s). Proper loading is accomplished on carpeted floors. Please consider the following. Don't reason yourself into a belief or position on this issue, but let your ears guide you (where have I heard that before? :) ). Rather, setup a A/B test in which you listen without the Stillpoints product and then with the product. I believe you will hear the benefit of isolation.

That said, there are still people with concerns. We want to address those concerns so we are in the development stage of testing spikes beginning with the Ultra 5 product. Using spikes should not prevent proper loading. Testing spikes came about as the result of a related project with the Ultra 5 and KEF Blade speakers. The shallow tap on the Blade cabinet (5 threads) presents an issue leveling the speaker when used with the standard Ultra 5 and adapter. We decided to provide additional leveling between the floor and bottom of the U5. We commissioned our machinist vendor to put a 1/2-20 tap in the bottom half of the U5 and then used our 1/2-20 to 1/4-20 adapter to attach a Ultra Base. Tightening the adapter into the U Base allows us to use the deep tap of the U5 bottom to provide the desired leveling adjustment distance. The logical progression was to commission spikes. We have prototypes but they need some redesign and we are working on that. I don't have a timetable for testing but rest assured I will report back to the forum once we have been able to test with spikes.

Speaking of proper loading. Do you have a specific weight range that you recommend for any particular footer you produce? From my (limited) understanding of how Stillpoints work they are essentially a bearing or multiple bearings sitting on a slotted disk spring. If the spring is overloaded it will not move much. If the spring is under loaded it will not move much either.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Speaking of proper loading. Do you have a specific weight range that you recommend for any particular footer you produce? From my (limited) understanding of how Stillpoints work they are essentially a bearing or multiple bearings sitting on a slotted disk spring. If the spring is overloaded it will not move much. If the spring is under loaded it will not move much either.

Hi Audioarcher...clearly the Manufacturer will answer better than I. That said, I believe the weightload for an Ultra 5 is well in excess of 1,000lbs...I think the video of the founder said 3,000lbs...as they were originally designed to go under pianos. In fact, in the video he describes measuring the piano with and without in a concert hall several rows back. I believe Ultra SS is 500lbs each?
 

allvinyl

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Apr 10, 2013
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Stillpoints on Carpet; Spikes

Sounds like hard work continues to come out of Stillpoints. Thanks for not resting on your laurels! Look forward to hearing about the spikes.

Thank you Lloyd. We certainly keep our ear to the ground with respect to feedback on our products and how to improve them. We are especially tuned to questions/comments/concerns from the field. Sort of where the Stillpoints meet the carpet, so to speak. ;)
 

audioarcher

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May 6, 2012
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Seattle area
Hi Audioarcher...clearly the Manufacturer will answer better than I. That said, I believe the weightload for an Ultra 5 is well in excess of 1,000lbs...I think the video of the founder said 3,000lbs...as they were originally designed to go under pianos. In fact, in the video he describes measuring the piano with and without in a concert hall several rows back. I believe Ultra SS is 500lbs each?

Thanks, I wonder what the minimum load is and if there is a sweet spot in terms of effectiveness. I'm using 4 Ultra SS under my 90 lb. turntable. From all reports I've heard 4 Ultra 5's would be better than my Ultra SS. I may have to try them out one of these days.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Thanks, I wonder what the minimum load is and if there is a sweet spot in terms of effectiveness. I'm using 4 Ultra SS under my 90 lb. turntable. From all reports I've heard 4 Ultra 5's would be better than my Ultra SS. I may have to try them out one of these days.

Hi Audioarcher, speaking only for myself in my own system...I have tried Ultra SS and Ultra 5s and LPIs. Unfortunately, I have preferred the Ultra 5s every time. Believe me, my wallet wanted to like the Ultra SS better!!! But I did find, even with the LPI, that when I used Ultra 5 I preferred it. In fact, it is funny that when I tried to describe to someone the 'step up' in performance of the Ultra 5 over the LPI, I said it was like going from an 8 to a 10...maybe a 20%+ 'score improvement'. It was only afterwards that we both laughed because that is about the price differential between the LPI and the Ultra 5.

In any event, what I found with the Ultra SS was the same family of improvements...but for some reason in my system, the frequency range was not as even as with the Ultra 5s...I felt if I had to draw a line of the frequency range it had more peaks/troughs...like when you play piano and you realize a few of the keys need to be looked at and slightly re-tuned. Now I must clarify, that is ONLY in comparison with the Ultra 5...I was impressed with the Ultra SS...I just was even happier with the Ultra 5s.
 

allvinyl

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Apr 10, 2013
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Original Stillpoint .vs. Stillpoints Ultra line of products

Speaking of proper loading. Do you have a specific weight range that you recommend for any particular footer you produce? From my (limited) understanding of how Stillpoints work they are essentially a bearing or multiple bearings sitting on a slotted disk spring. If the spring is overloaded it will not move much. If the spring is under loaded it will not move much either.

Your description (petals) is of the original Stillpoint calyx. The Ultra line of products does not take much forward from the original Stillpoint design. The bodies are stainless, not Delrin, the calyx is stainless, not Delrin. The ceramic used is different in size and configuration.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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I use Stillpoint Ultra's under my Wilson Maxx3's with carpet probably a little thicker than Audioarcher based on his system photos.

They work and provide a positive impact on the sound. At 425lbs per speaker, they are secure and don't move.

With the Maxx3's, changing from the spikes/wheels to the Stillpoints is easy and takes no more than 20 minutes by yourself.
Jack up with one side, remove the spikes and screw in the Stillpoints. Jack down, then repeat at the back. The Maxx3 still has the centre of gravity in the bottom of the speaker, so when jacking up and down they will not fall over - unless you physically push them over :)

I used the Wilson diode for two reasons. I did not really want to screw the Stillpoints thread directly into the base of the speaker and using the diode and ultra's maintains the same height as the diode and spikes.

I found that the best performance was to have a gap between the bottom of the speaker and the diode, then another between the diode and the Stillpoints. Seems to be more open sounding this way.

Anyway, if you have big Wilson's don't be afraid to try the Stillpoints. Certainly a breeze compared to moving my TW Acustik Raven AC-3 turntable.
 

audioarcher

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May 6, 2012
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Seattle area
XV-1 I would expect that the heavier the speaker (assuming it's not top heavy) the less likely it will be tippy. 425 lbs. will compress the carpet pretty well but there will still be some movement. My concern is not about the speaker tipping over. It is how the small horizontal motion will effect the sound being produced by the drivers. If you like the Ultra 5's better than just spikes on carpet that is cool. I just think it would be even better if the Ultra 5's were spiked through the carpet.
 

allvinyl

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Apr 10, 2013
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Burnsville, MN
Stillpoints Installation Recommendations

I use Stillpoint Ultra's under my Wilson Maxx3's with carpet probably a little thicker than Audioarcher based on his system photos.
...
I found that the best performance was to have a gap between the bottom of the speaker and the diode, then another between the diode and the Stillpoints. Seems to be more open sounding this way.
...

Yes, a 'Stillpoints mantra' is to leave a gap between the component being isolated and the Stillpoint product. Anything that can be done to provide a confusing path (read not straight path) for vibration energy allows for quicker dissipation resulting in better sound. This is easy to A/B and easily discernible. Same reason you want to back the Hard Hat off the pad of a Ultra SS. You don't want those 2 surfaces touching each other.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Yes, a 'Stillpoints mantra' is to leave a gap between the component being isolated and the Stillpoint product. Anything that can be done to provide a confusing path (read not straight path) for vibration energy allows for quicker dissipation resulting in better sound. This is easy to A/B and easily discernible. Same reason you want to back the Hard Hat off the pad of a Ultra SS. You don't want those 2 surfaces touching each other.

Correct John, I forgot to mention that :)

Looks quite bizzare with 3 distinct gaps supporting my heavy speakers :D. But as you said, works better that way.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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XV-1 I would expect that the heavier the speaker (assuming it's not top heavy) the less likely it will be tippy. 425 lbs. will compress the carpet pretty well but there will still be some movement. My concern is not about the speaker tipping over. It is how the small horizontal motion will effect the sound being produced by the drivers. If you like the Ultra 5's better than just spikes on carpet that is cool. I just think it would be even better if the Ultra 5's were spiked through the carpet.

That would be ultimately an interesting comparison. My floor under the carpet is concrete. There is a train of though that spiking into concrete can cause very low feedback, so isolating from that is a good idea. This is why a lot of non spike alternatives seem to work well under speakers.

Honestly, my heavy speakers do not move being played with 100db plus electronic music ( using the very scientific hand on speaker method) , I have no concerns about micro horizontal movements if they are there.

Best thing to do is try for yourself and hear if the difference's are positive.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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I had my friend Bill Demars from Beauty of Sound stop by today to help me get my Wilson X-2.2 back on rollers. I have been tweaking their position as the Wilson dealer setup was not optimal given the limited time they had at my place. The Ultra 5's are arriving in a few days and I will be using them on concrete/ medium pile padded carpet. I am confident that the 600+ lbs of each speaker will adequately compress the rug to make a good coupling with the basement concrete floor.
 

MadFloyd

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I look forward to hearing how that turns out.

How do you tweak the position of 600 pound speakers by yourself, Christian?
 

rockitman

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I look forward to hearing how that turns out.

How do you tweak the position of 600 pound speakers by yourself, Christian?

When on the rollers, even on carpet I can grapple and move them around. I'm happy with the back of the speaker to wall distance within a few inches. It's just a matter of toe angle based on how far I am sitting back, which is in flux now. Based on my initial observations, I was close too or right on the limit on how close you can be to the speaker and have the propagation delay be correct. I have since moved 10" back from the original position and the coherence has improved, along with wider and deeper apparent soundstage.
 

MadFloyd

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So what is the speaker to front wall distance, how far from the speakers to your ears and what is the distance from tweeter to tweeter?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Speakers are 11' from tweeter to tweeter and I sit 12' back with an ear height of 31"

Nick Doshi proved this to me when he was at my house setting up his Doshi tape head preamp when final speaker position had not yet been determined. Nick Suggested that I toe out my speakers 1/4". He told me to put painters blue tape on my listening chair and to use my laser along the inner side of my speakers and make a mark on the blue tape where the laser touches and then to do the toe out of 1/4" and to remeasure. The difference I found was amazing as it was a difference of over 8" at each side. Simple experiment to do and can be easily proved. I can recall several years ago when Jeff Fritz was doing a write up on his X2's which was his first TWBAS. In it he described how the Wilson installers proved a similar change and how others wailed on him that he could tell differences with but a mere change in toe in or toe out of 1/8-1/4".Well let me tell you the audible change is instantly evident and can be proved with this simple experiment
 

MadFloyd

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Speakers are 11' from tweeter to tweeter and I sit 12' back with an ear height of 31"

Nick Doshi proved this to me when he was at my house setting up his Doshi tape head preamp when final speaker position had not yet been determined. Nick Suggested that I toe out my speakers 1/4". He told me to put painters blue tape on my listening chair and to use my laser along the inner side of my speakers and make a mark on the blue tape where the laser touches and then to do the toe out of 1/4" and to remeasure. The difference I found was amazing as it was a difference of over 8" at each side. Simple experiment to do and can be easily proved. I can recall several years ago when Jeff Fritz was doing a write up on his X2's which was his first TWBAS. In it he described how the Wilson installers proved a similar change and how others wailed on him that he could tell differences with but a mere change in toe in or toe out of 1/8-1/4".Well let me tell you the audible change is instantly evident and can be proved with this simple experiment

While I actually meant that question for Christian, your answer has piqued my curiosity. I sit back 12 feet from my Alexias but they are only 9 feet apart tweeter to tweeter (%75 of the listening distance). Yours are 91% which much higher. If I recall correctly from Jim Smith's Get Better Sound, the average is usually around 83%. I'm not suggesting anything is wrong, just noting the differences. In any case, I agree that moving the speakers 1/2 inch does make a huge difference - a lot more than any cable change and sometimes a lot more than a component change. I use a laser to adjust toe in as well and you can use a laser for a lot more than that (as I learned from watching Jim Smith who uses multiple).

Steve, how far out are your speakers from the front wall (approx distance from back to wall)? I ask only for my own curiosity as I'm the last person who could suggest something was right or wrong about speaker positioning.
 

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