Studer A820 Versus Ampex ATR-102

[Ron Resnick]

If someone were trying to choose today between a reconditioned Studer A820 in excellent condition and working order and an Ampex ATR–102 in excellent conditioned and working order, each with similarly good condition tape heads and all other things, including cost, equal, what are the pros and cons of using for repro only an A820 and an ATR-102?

How would you choose between these two machines for repro only?

Which would you choose?

MikeL - what made you ultimately sell your ATR-102 and keep only A820s?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

this is just my own opinion based on my listening.

actual performance for listening is very close and would come down to taste. maybe the 'stock' ATR-102 sounds very slightly better than the stock A-820. probably the ATR stock output electronics are a simpler circuit. but then the A-820 with the Studer 'Trafoless (transformerless) output cards is IMHO clearly better yet. so if dubbing from an A-820 with those trafoless cards that would be optimal (all three of my A-820's have those trafoless cards).

when i added my King Cello to the A-820 then i much preferred the A-820 that way even to the trafoless cards in my particular system. remember the King Cello in my system is able to use the 'zeel' 50 ohm interface into the dart preamp. not sure if that is relevant for broader based application.

the A-820 has three clear advantages over the ATR-102 that makes it better to live with as a repro only deck. (1) more gentle tape handling, less stress on tapes. (2) one button switching EQ from NAB to IEC. the ATR requires either changing or switching output cards. (3) no cooling fan so quieter operation in room. the Swiss designed and built A-820 uses convection cooling to eliminate the need for a fan. they say you can disconnect the fan of the ATR. not sure i like that as a long term plan.

OTOH one can make a very strong case in favor of the ATR from a service, parts and acquisition cost basis.

the ATR is very solidly built. the frame pieces are screwed together. the Studer is built on a level beyond any other audio device i've ever seen. all the motors are attached to a massive one piece casting. amazing.

and then there is how they look, on that subject game, set, match to the big bad Studer IMHO. atthough there are those who like the raw industrial look of the ATR.

i sold my ATR-102 mostly because i loved the A-820 more to live with every day. loved it's look and how it worked. hard to say how much the fact i had the direct head output installed and was able to listen through the King Cello. at that time Ki Choi was reluctant to install the direct head output on the ATR since he had not learned about it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Mike, for that very detailed reply!

 

[astrotoy]

I never considered an A820 because of cost. My ATR-102's were much less expensive than comparable condition A820's or A80's. If cost is not a consideration, then I would have probably bought a pair of A820's for the reasons that Mike gave. One advantage to the 102's is that you can change headblocks very quickly. I just switched from 1/4" to 1/2" this morning and it took about 90 seconds. If I wanted to switch between 1/4" and 1/2" tapes on the A820, I would probably do what Mike has done, have two of them! Agree with Mike on the EQ change. That is why I use my Doshi 3.0 for playback on my play 102. With the Doshi I don't use the Ampex Audio Cards, and I can change between NAB and IEC (and AES if necessary) with a turn of a switch. I also only dub tapes in IEC, so I don't have to change the settings on my record machine's audio cards.

In the US, you can find ATR-102s fairly easily in recording studios (that is where both of mine came from). Not so easy to find A820's. Reverse is true in Europe. I think that is true of techs also.

Larry

 

[microstrip]

( ...) Which would you choose? (...)

First parameter to consider - service. Can you easily get parts and qualified experts to work on the machine? How expensive will be maintenance?

Second - I would ask to see the scrap flutter measurement of both machines. It seems to me that it what separates good from excellent sounding machines.

Advice for those who do not want to spend a lot - go for an A80. A Studer without microprocessors ...

Just a question for the experts - can you get the same type of technical information - freely accessible complete service manuals and technical information - for the ATR 102, as we can get for Studer's from the Studer archives?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I never considered an A820 because of cost. My ATR-102's were much less expensive than comparable condition A820's or A80's. If cost is not a consideration, then I would have probably bought a pair of A820's for the reasons that Mike gave. One advantage to the 102's is that you can change headblocks very quickly. I just switched from 1/4" to 1/2" this morning and it took about 90 seconds. If I wanted to switch between 1/4" and 1/2" tapes on the A820, I would probably do what Mike has done, have two of them! Agree with Mike on the EQ change. That is why I use my Doshi 3.0 for playback on my play 102. With the Doshi I don't use the Ampex Audio Cards, and I can change between NAB and IEC (and AES if necessary) with a turn of a switch. I also only dub tapes in IEC, so I don't have to change the settings on my record machine's audio cards.

In the US, you can find ATR-102s fairly easily in recording studios (that is where both of mine came from). Not so easy to find A820's. Reverse is true in Europe. I think that is true of techs also.

Larry

Larry,

switching headblocks, guides, and hubs on the A-820 is a 2 to 3 minute process. not sure i could do it in 90 seconds. i have both 1/4" and 1/2" headblocks for one of my A-820's, neither of those have the direct out head switches and i use that as my 'record' deck exclusively. the other 2 are my playback only machines even though both are fully capable of recording.

in any case, ease of changing headblocks is also an attribute of the A-820.

 

[astrotoy]

First parameter to consider - service. Can you easily get parts and qualified experts to work on the machine? How expensive will be maintenance?

Second - I would ask to see the scrap flutter measurement of both machines. It seems to me that it what separates good from excellent sounding machines.

Advice for those who do not want to spend a lot - go for an A80. A Studer without microprocessors ...

Just a question for the experts - can you get the same type of technical information - freely accessible complete service manuals and technical information - for the ATR 102, as we can get for Studer's from the Studer archives?

Yes, there is a complete service manual free on line and you can buy the complete service manual in hard copy from ATR Services. Size of a phone book.

 

[Bruce B]

I'd choose the A80RC MkII.... and here's why I did...
I've had 4 A820 machines in here and 2 ATR machines (as well as assorted others). Like Fred said... the A820 is a ticking time bomb. Has many logic circiuts and just too complex. The A820 was built for Post Production work... to sync with film. With convenience comes complexity. For me to change EQ... I just pull a card out and slip another one in. That simple. You might be able to change the headbloc and rollers from 1/4" to 1/2" on the other machines.... but what about the other parameters like tape tension, motor height and so on???
I can completely disassemble the machine with a few tools in no time. Mike's machines have been down for months at a time because of the complexity.

 

[ALF]

I’ve done both the Fred Studer A820 solution and the ATR Services 102...super results!!

A Studer A820 completely gone over by Fred is not a ticking time bomb...Fred, he’s trying to sell his Model Two...let’s call it marketing . However, without Fred’s touch, it can be a crapshoot picking up a A820 from who knows where.

ATR Services, done that, also with super results. They sourced and provided me a complete 102 solution...seamless with no issues!!

Both of the machines with the 1/4” and 1/2” capabilities...if you love, or want to love tape, IMHO, it’s Fred or the fine folks ATR Services.

IMHO, If I was mad, maybe I am, about duping tapes...either one of the two mentioned above fed the source by the new ATAE Model Two...would be the SOTA.

Cheers!
ALF

 

[Bruce B]

A Studer A820 completely gone over by Fred is not a ticking time bomb...

However, without Fred’s touch, it can be a crapshoot picking up a A820 from who knows where.
ALF

There you go...... who has the $$$$$ for an ATAE A820?????

 

[Mike Lavigne]

.........You might be able to change the headbloc and rollers from 1/4" to 1/2" on the other machines.... but what about the other parameters like tape tension, motor height and so on???.........

according to Ki, the A-820 is designed to be able to go back and forth, and have the particular different head stacks dialed in for those parameters. this was his machine he used in that way. and, of course, you can have 'A' settings, and 'B' settings for different tape set-ups too with one button switching.

there is a downsides to logic circuits, but also a significant upside in usability and in gentle tape handling. and my level of use is so benign compared to the workhorse environment they were designed for. OTOH i agree on the advantages of the A80 or ATR in repair and parts ease. i'm fortunate to have Ki in the neighborhood. there are other A-820 owners with reasonably accessible repair support too.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, there is a complete service manual free on line and you can buy the complete service manual in hard copy from ATR Services. Size of a phone book.

Can you post a link to the free manual? Please understand it is just by curiosity, I would probably not consider an ATR 102 in Europe, but I would like to know better what we are debating.

 

[microstrip]

I'd choose the A80RC MkII.... and here's why I did...
I've had 4 A820 machines in here and 2 ATR machines (as well as assorted others). Like Fred said... the A820 is a ticking time bomb. Has many logic circiuts and just too complex. The A820 was built for Post Production work... to sync with film. With convenience comes complexity. For me to change EQ... I just pull a card out and slip another one in. That simple. You might be able to change the headbloc and rollers from 1/4" to 1/2" on the other machines.... but what about the other parameters like tape tension, motor height and so on???
I can completely disassemble the machine with a few tools in no time. Mike's machines have been down for months at a time because of the complexity.

Exactly. We have to consider what people want to do with machine. As far as I see, most audiophiles want an amateur machine and dream about tailoring its sound quality to their preference. Why would I want a very complex machine that needs an expensive and time consuming course to be mastered if I just want to listen to a tape occasionaly? And I suppose that professionals are people who make a life from what is an hobby for most of us and must also look very attentively to the economics and down times of tape machines. But some of them prefer the C37!

The A820 remembers me of modern cars - service must be carried connecting them to a computer by some one with experience who understands all these parameters. For the A80 all I need is a good spring dynamometer, that I can easily calibrate with the same weight I use to calibrate my VTA scale ...

BTW, does any one know of a simple way of calibrating the A80 oil/silicone dampers?

 

[astrotoy]

Can you post a link to the free manual? Please understand it is just by curiosity, I would probably not consider an ATR 102 in Europe, but I would like to know better what we are debating.

https://www.analogrules.com/manuals/ampex_manuals1.html

You can download the ATR-100 series manuals as well as other Ampex manuals here. He asked not to repost the actual manuals so I didn't.

 

[dcc]

On my side of the Atlantic, the ATR-102 is a rare beast. My tech is currently repairing one and he needs to get the spare parts from ATR Services and they are everything but cheap. Cesare Ricci from Foné uses several ATR-102 that were modified by David Manley.

I would follow Bruce’s advice and go for the A80 RC MkII. When I consulted my tech prior acquiring a tape deck, he gave me the same advice with the exact same argumentation and he maintains more A820s than A80s. This is reason why I opted for the A80 RC MkII.

 

[ALF]

There you go...... who has the $$$$$ for an ATAE A820?????

Hey BB,

I don’t know; however, like yourself, I’m a big fan of AMG.

Other than my appreciated SLS FE, in a few quick years the typical AMG depreciation outshines the cost of the entry price for the ATAE Model Two .

Cheers!
ALF

 

[astrotoy]

Is there a major reason for an audiophile type (vs. a professional who may have some specific needs) to chose an A820 over an A80? I'm thinking mostly about sonic characteristics, but it also could be other factors. It appears clear from the discussion on the thread that an A820 is a more complex machine.

Larry

 

[microstrip]

https://www.analogrules.com/manuals/ampex_manuals1.html

You can download the ATR-100 series manuals as well as other Ampex manuals here. He asked not to repost the actual manuals so I didn't.

Thanks. I have now briefly gone through the service manual - it is an impressive machine. But I got the feeling that cards are more complex than those of the A80. And prices of a few spares I could find in the net are typically three too five times more expensive than those I paid for A80 equivalents in the UK or Germany.

 

[astrotoy]

Thanks. I have now briefly gone through the service manual - it is an impressive machine. But I got the feeling that cards are more complex than those of the A80. And prices of a few spares I could find in the net are typically three too five times more expensive than those I paid for A80 equivalents in the UK or Germany.

You are on the wrong side of the pond for a 102. I won't tell you how much I paid for my two 102's, particularly the second one, which had been rebuilt by ATR Services 8 years before I bought it. We have the same problem getting Studers at bargain prices over here.

 

[Bruce B]

Is there a major reason for an audiophile type (vs. a professional who may have some specific needs) to chose an A820 over an A80?
Larry

Simple.... convenience....