T+A PDP 3000 HV or MP 3100 HV?

[JaapV8]

Hi,

After my first thread on my problem with my Burmester 111 with dual mono 911 config (which hasn't been solved yet, The dealer cancelled for the third time to visit me and help me investigate the problem or experimen with alternative devices like for example the stand alone 077 or 808) I've decided to take actions on my own. I will get rid of the 111 and replace it by a 808 mk5 with ref PS.
Hoping I will be able to do so without losing too much money bc although both devices are about the same price (the 111 even slightly more expensive), he already assured me that Burmester won't replace it and that leaves me with a 3 month old 2nd hand 111 to sell.

Anyway ,this step will leave me without sources like CD/Media player, streamer and DAC.
I don't have to explain here that you can easily spend a fortune on each one of those devices when you want top class versions. Apart from the numerous options to choose from.

Keeping in mind that I need the following options:
-Streaming (which bc of its convenience and current quality of Tidal Master has become my main source)
-CD/SACD playability, I still have a considerable collection of those. Of course I could rip them and play from a NAS or internal/external drive
-Digital connections for my TV and/or Blu ray player for movies, concerts etc.
-a top DAC, which of course can make or break the forementioned sources
-a user friendly and stable app which preferably can be operated by my iPhone as well as an iPad (which always seems to be out of juice when I need it)
-Witin a 10000-15000 euro range, which is the max I can spend right now. If I need to do consessions in functionality for later add-ons, I'd drop the CD player first. I also have a Macbook pro which I could use as streamer but rather not.

I already considered the following devices;
-Burmester 151, this device will give me back all the options I had on the 111 and I will stay with my favoured line/brand. Unfortunately it lacks any (digital) input and I also use my system for my blu-ray/tv setup. This is definitely a dealbreaker for me.

-The Lumin X1, after having read raving reviews and user experiences, it seems like a great device. Of course it has no CD player but I could rip them and play by external storage. unfortunately no digital inputs for my tv.

Anyway , I could go on and on but let's get to the topic.
Today I did an auditioning of the T+A PDP 3000 HV. Lovely device; Sturdy build quality, plenty of connections, seperate PCM/DSD paths. a CD/SACD tray that oozes quality with a magnetic puck to put on top for stabilization. And... I loved the sound. (the rest of the set was; Burmester 808, Burmester 909 and Sonus Faber Electa Amator 3). It has no streamer, but the dealer assured me if I would add for example a lumin U1 with PS, which doesn't break the bank I would have that part suffiently covered.

I thought I'd found what I was looking for. At home I checked online reviews and was confirmed that this was a top-end device. Then I went on to check the complete T+A HV line and found the MP 3100 HV. A later iteration of the same device it seems (ok, there also was a MP 3000 HV) but with built in streamer and tuner.

Yet although 2 years 'younger', added functionality and almost exactly the same specs (same DACS for sure) it is 1000 euro cheaper. At closer inspection of the features I only noticed that the CD tray looked different (no fancy stability puck), yet reviews speak of an increase in player stability and of course I can't see inside. Also, while both devices have dual laser systems the PDP mentions : Doppel-GaAlAs-Lasersystem, where the MP 3100 doesn't (or they forgot to mention it)
No idea what this does, but it is also present in the latest player-only reference PDT 3100 HV.

A bit confused I called the dealer to ask if the newer MP 3100 HV wouldn't be a better option, he replied that he tried both but preferred the sound quality of the PDP and thought that the presence of the internal streamer and other options were probably responsible for that. In a way this makes sense, cramming more features in the same housing without adding weight or size rarely goes without consessions, or maybe it's the 'Doppel-GaAlAs-Lasersystem' that makes the PDP sound superior. On the other hand, 2 years of electronic development could have allowed them to make a better device with more options. (still, why the lower price)

Unfortunately he doesn't have a MP 3100 HV for a side by side comparison, while other T+A dealers in my area dropped the PDP out of the collection (only on special order) and have the MP 3100 on display.

Does anyone here have any experience with the T+A HV line and/or particularly these devices?

 

[KostasP.]

Hello JaapV8,

I have the PDP 3000 HV. I chose this after auditioning seven different brands ( two were valve DACs ) using my CEC transport in my dedicated listening room, not to mention several others at various dealers. I do not wish to mention nor denigrate any of the contenders but I assure you that the decision to choose the T&A PDP 300 HV was not difficult at all. I only use it for CD and SACD playback and thus am not taking advantage of its complete versatility. Needless to say, I find it impossible to fault it sonically, technologically and functionally. It is very expensive but a truly state-of-the-art, un-compromised component that one buys to keep.

It suits my system perfectly and complements my analogue source harmoniously, thus negating any superiority \ inferiority analogue \ digital issue.

Cheers, Kostas.

 

[JaapV8]

Hello JaapV8,

I have the PDP 3000 HV. I chose this after auditioning seven different brands ( two were valve DACs ) using my CEC transport in my dedicated listening room, not to mention several others at various dealers. I do not wish to mention nor denigrate any of the contenders but I assure you that the decision to choose the T&A PDP 300 HV was not difficult at all. I only use it for CD and SACD playback and thus am not taking advantage of its complete versatility. Needless to say, I find it impossible to fault it sonically, technologically and functionally. It is very expensive but a truly state-of-the-art, un-compromised component that one buys to keep.

It suits my system perfectly and complements my analogue source harmoniously, thus negating any superiority \ inferiority analogue \ digital issue.

Cheers, Kostas.

Hi Kostas,

I heard the PDP 3000 HV too yesterday and was very impressed! So I made my choice (in brand/range) already. My doubt/confusion however was about getting the PDP 3000 HV or the newer MP 3100 HV which seems to offer the same functionality and quality but with added features as a streamer which would save me from buying a (high end) streamer as well. Yet the dealer claimed that the MP 3100 HV didn't sound as good as the PDP. I have no opportunity yet to listen them side by side for forementioned reasons. So I wondered if there was anyone here who experienced them both and if the difference in SQ is minimal or substantial. I loved the sound of the PDP, but at this point I'm willing to go with a bit lesser quality for the beneit of having a streamer integrated for the similar or even lower price.

 

[christoph]

Hi Jaap

From what I read about your experiences, I would find me another dealer

 

[KostasP.]

Hello again JaapV8,

You should NOT rely on ANY dealer or forum poster for that matter, especially those with vested interests.
I am simply unreservedly endorsing the PDP 3000 HV, based on my comparisons ( two units were almost twice the price ) and, of course, I have no experience with the MP 3100 HV.

Your rationale in obtaining the MP 3100 HV, rather than the PDP 3000 HV, in order to serve YOUR OWN needs, seems to be logical and even desirable. Pursue a direct comparison if feasible, otherwise rely on your findings so far and on the fact that the sonic differences may not be as significant as it is claimed.

By the way, this forum is inappropriate to seek advice for T&A products. Very few know them and even fewer use them. A more useful forum will be audioshark.org, as there are more owners \ users there. But ultimately ( as for any component ), you should only rely on your own devices.

Cheers again, Kostas.

 

[JaapV8]

Hi Kostas,

You are right that T+A is not very known here. Even I was unfamiliar with the brand until a week ago. And I also think you are right that I should chose the object that serves my current needs the best considering my budget and take sonic differences for granted as they probably won't be huge. Furthermore, direct comparisons are always hard, if not impossible at dealers bc none will have the same system as yours , not to mention listening environment. And of course you have to find a trusted dealer who doesn't 'tweak' the comparison to sell you what he wants to sell you.

The reaason why I asked this question on this forum is that from experience sometimes great companies can make concessions/mistakes by the desire to create an all-in-one machine or deliberately tweak them down to not harm the sales of their higher priced stand alone devices (see my topic about the Burmesterr 111, where I'm still convinced that the preamp section was inferior to the stand alone preamps, while marketed as 'reference'). This doesn't only happen in high end audio but also in for example photography (another hobby of me). Companies are sometimes too ambitious to beat the competition by trying to offer too many features in one device to make the spec sheets look great for marketing even while some features are still in a 'beta' phase' and not yet functioning properly (think the first versions of Sony full frame mirrorless cameras) or they deliberately leave out features to protect the sales of their higher end models or different product lines (Camera brands leaving out some video features which easily could have been implemented in software/firmware .to protect their videocamera range).

But thank you for replies, and I'll spend this night catching up on my German, since most extended reviews are in that language.

have a nice day

 

[JaapV8]

Hi Jaap

From what I read about your experiences, I would find me another dealer

The dealer who sold me the Burmester is not the same guy as the T+A dealer. About the former one, I'm for sure not done with him yet ;-)

 

[pdubya]

I had the MP 3100 HV. Couldn’t really fault the SQ, though I’ve preferred the Luxman d08u’s slightly more musical sound and obvious superior synergy with Lux c900u/m900u. And, sorry I can’t really define musical for you other than to say to me, it’s more involving and sounds more like music and less like a recording. But it’s really a fine line and I may feel differently if I had T+A pre/power.

Wish I could have heard the PDP, which I understand to be a better disc spinner — I’m fairly certain the manufacturer designed it to be. I think they have a new PDP 3100 coming out — maybe Munich?

I was not impressed with the T+A’s streaming interface. It’s been at least 6 months and they may well have updated/improved the app, but I found it to be very primitive compared to Roon or Aurender Conductor (which I actually prefer to Roon.) At the time they had updated the app for their 8 series gear but for some reason the HV line was not (yet) compatible.

Parker

 

[JaapV8]

I had the MP 3100 HV. Couldn’t really fault the SQ, though I’ve preferred the Luxman d08u’s slightly more musical sound and obvious superior synergy with Lux c900u/m900u. And, sorry I can’t really define musical for you other than to say to me, it’s more involving and sounds more like music and less like a recording. But it’s really a fine line and I may feel differently if I had T+A pre/power.

Wish I could have heard the PDP, which I understand to be a better disc spinner — I’m fairly certain the manufacturer designed it to be. I think they have a new PDP 3100 coming out — maybe Munich?

I was not impressed with the T+A’s streaming interface. It’s been at least 6 months and they may well have updated/improved the app, but I found it to be very primitive compared to Roon or Aurender Conductor (which I actually prefer to Roon.) At the time they had updated the app for their 8 series gear but for some reason the HV line was not (yet) compatible.

Parker

Hi Parker,

thank you for your reply. Indeed I also tend to believe that the PDP is a superior Disc Player, especially since the mechanism seems to have more in common with the reference T+A stand alone Player (PDT 3100 HV) then the MP 3100. A German review of the MP 3100 HV also mentioned that the device seemed 'source invariant'. In other words, he couldn't distinguish the sound quality of a high quality stream from a CD/SACD source. Which could mean 2 things; either the PDP is a superior player or streaming has caught up with physical sources like CD's and even SACD's. Leaving me with the question, should I even bother buying a CD player.

And also the synergy with my other equipment is something not to be ignored. I have always loved my Burmester 911mk3 amp, after many comparisons with other poweramps (on my B&W 802N's). Not to say it is the best power amp by definition, but I just preferred the sound. Yet changing speakers, sources, pre amps might change the game however. For example, I always considered the 909 to be the holy grail of power amps, yet before the dealer connected the 808 + 909, the PDP 3000 HV was connected to a McIntosh set, a pre and 2 mono's (didn't check the types). And to be honest, my first test track (Telegraph road) seemed to sound better ,better layering, positioning and soundstage then after the hook up with the BM set. Although it could also be that those devices were already warmed up while the Burmesters weren't.

The 'safest' way might be to switch to a T+A system entirely. But I'm not emotionally ready to part with my 911's ;-) and I still love the estetics of Burmester way over T+A or any other brand for that matter (apart from maybe some exotic tube amps)

Greetings,

jaap

 

[audiodoctor]

We are a T+A dealer with experience on the line

The PDP 3000 is still the reference sacd cd player. The newer 3100 add in the streaming but the disc drive is not as good.

 

[christoph]

The dealer who sold me the Burmester is not the same guy as the T+A dealer. About the former one, I'm for sure not done with him yet ;-)

Have you tried to contact Burmester directly in this matter?
I mean it is not desirable to sell the "faulty" gear with a loss.
The loss is bad for you and the faulty gear (I strongly hope you would be transparent to the potential buyer) is bad for the buyer

 

[JaapV8]

We are a T+A dealer with experience on the line

The PDP 3000 is still the reference sacd cd player. The newer 3100 add in the streaming but the disc drive is not as good.

Thank you, it confirms the findings of the dealer I did the auditioning, and he's a honest guy (as far as I can tell ;-) ). Do you have the SD 3100 HV on stock already btw? It shoud be the new reference DAC/Streamer. About 10000 more expensive. But if I leave CD/SACD behind anyway , I might better wait and save up for this device. Yet no reviews I could find with comparisons to similar priced Streamer/DACS like for example the Naim555.

Being new to T+A and looking at their top HV line, I notice a few things; All devices (from streamer, player to preamp or combi's) look pretty similar if not the same. all have roughly the same size and weight. Same goes for the specs and description of used technology. They rarely offer external power supplies (except for the A 3000 HV poweramp and PA 3100 HV integrated amp, where other brands mostly offer external PS for sources or pre's).
All makes it pretty confusing choosing a device based on the provided data.

Admitted, at least they do provide quite extensive specsheets in contrast to other brands who often just make claims like; after years of research and implementing new technology XWYZ, we greatly improved on our previous reference class models and yada yada yada. (and of course we doubled the pricetag, and oh, if you want the full experience add another 10000 for the external PS)

 

[JaapV8]

Have you tried to contact Burmester directly in this matter?
I mean it is not desirable to sell the "faulty" gear with a loss.
The loss is bad for you and the faulty gear (I strongly hope you would be transparent to the potential buyer) is bad for the buyer

As I said before (in another thread I posted on this forum), I contacted the BM dealer (and the Burmester company) multiple times. The dealer has cancelled every appointment to come over he made so far and Burmester replied to my problem with ; according to our technicians, it should work. Wether the device (the 111) is faulty has yet to be established, all I know is that with 2 BM911's in mono it doesn't sound right. Not awful, but my car stereo sounds better, which should say enough. Yet after months of experiments and without any support of my dealer I still don't know what the problem is. The 111 combined with (either) 911 in stereo sounds fine, yet in dual mono config, the sound becomes unpleasant to say the least.

I would never sell off a device which I suspect to be faulty (I have my ethics), and before I move on I will have all my devices checked (they are all still within warranty). Not only for any potentional buyer of my 111, but also to make sure both my 911's are ok so I won't have a problem with my next setup.

 

[thyname]

So @JaapV8 which did you end up buying?