Tesla solar and Powerwall to power audio system?

[213Cobra]

Whether Sun Power or anyone else builds the inverter into the battery chassis or keeps it external, there has to be an inverter for DC>AC. -Phil

 

[Steve Williams]

Whether Sun Power or anyone else builds the inverter into the battery chassis or keeps it external, there has to be an inverter for DC>AC. -Phil

Makes sense

 

[213Cobra]

Also, I have not seen any solar + batteries installation that routes the combined DC outputs from panels and batteries through a single inverter. At least one of the reasons for this is that the battery needs its own inverter/rectifier to be chargeable from the grid, whereas the solar panels cannot be subjected to an inrush of current from either grid or batteries. -Phil

 

[Xymox]

mine was installed well after the class suit and I have never had a single problem from day1

During the month of May I produced 201% of what I used and for the past 4 years I have never received an electric bill and I continue to have a credit balance of well over $500 in my account

Niiiiccceeee... Gotta love it when the power company pays you. Its like payback for all those years...

 

[Xymox]

RF bath

Yes indeed.. Good description.. A inverter is always going to do this. Its the nature of the beast and the amount of shielding would vary alot. because its low freq RF its really nearly EMI as well as RFI. So you need a thin steel box not just copper foil to block all of this. These are basically really powerful switching supplies. Nasty harmonic output. The output tho would be filtered and the amount of filtering will vary I am sure with each solultion.

As a Ham Radio guy, I now remember seeing LOTS of ham posting about the RF bath completely wiping out the lower RF bands for ham operators when they get solar. I also saw postings where neighbors getting solar ( inverters ) wiped out the lower Ham bands..

So YEP RFI would indeed be a real concern and would indeed effect tube based gear more.. Thats RFI tru the air, not so much thru the power line because the power line gets filtering comeing out of the inverter..

You have brought up a really good point. i think ALL inverters cause really intense levels of RFI which can be radiated by the wires to the solar panels with all that acting as a giant transmitting antenna. The inside house wiring will also pick this up acting like a rcv antenna and it can get back into gear..

So no matter what, RFI should be part of the consideration when picking a system. Good RFI filtering can be added to things to suppress this. I am not sure what solutions are available for this for solar / inverter systems.

Interesting... Good post..

 

[Steve Williams]

I prefer to listen when my house is drawing completely from my panels. ( ie daytime)

once I install wall batteries I prefer to run my house and not my sound system. Finally wrt DC I’m looking forward to the Taiko Extreme DC and battery upgrade. This would allow for DC use of the digital side of my system 24 x 7

 

[Xymox]

I prefer to listen when my house is drawing completely from my panels. ( ie daytime)

once I install wall batteries I prefer to run my house and not my sound system. Finally wrt DC I’m looking forward to the Taiko Extreme DC and battery upgrade. This would allow for DC use of the digital side of my system 24 x 7

OoOoOooooo Extreme + DC... OoOoOo, Ahhhhhhhh,, bliss.....

Nothing as quite as a battery.. Its low noise nirvana. Phono pre and a pre are great on a batt..

 

[Steve Williams]

I love the Tesla brand however when it comes to panels I went Sun Power because Tesla Solar panels are made by Panasonic. Sun Power is all American and make their own panels in the good old USA

 

[Xymox]

Looks like it worse then Panasonic.. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/26/tes...solar-cell-production-at-buffalo-factory.html

 

[loki1957]

Has anyone tried Generac powerwall? Looks interesting as you can easily add batteries if you want more storage.

 

[seatrope]

I have solar panels + two Tesla Powerwall batteries. Whether your solar array uses micro-inverters or gangs all the panel outputs into one inverter, you will end up with a second inverter for the Tesla Powerwall(s). Depending where you live and the seasons, solar can easily charge the Powerwall + power your home during the day, after which the Powerwall(s) extend your solar power availability by releasing battery-stored solar-generated energy. I live in Los Angeles, where LADWP determines how much solar capacity you may install based on your prior two years of power consumption, if you are going to remain connected to their grid. So in my case in the winter when we get rain -- IF we get rain -- the Powerwalls won't get fully refilled.

You can set the percentage of Powerwall capacity you want reserved for power outages, so in the evening when the house is powered from batteries, that will end once the reserve percentage is reached. During pending storm expectations, Tesla automatically charges to full from the grid, if necessary, and stops discharging to maintain a full battery for the duration of a storm watch.

I can sometimes convince myself that the hifi sounds a trifle better during the evenings when my house is battery powered, but then even later, ala 2am when I am back on the grid, at can sound even better. So the Powerwall isn't a significant advantage to SQ. I don't detect any real change in powerline pollution from batteries. The solar + batteries system does not create powerline noise I didn't have before. The primary new problem introduced by my solar + Poweralls has been the RF bath I didn't have before. It complicates amp selection more than anything as some tube amps in particular are highly effective antennas for the resulting RFI, routing it directly into both hifi systems in my house. That's the one tricky new element introduced by solar + Powerwalls. I got solar installed first back in 2017. Powerwalls were backordered so there was about a five month period where I experienced the RF problems generated by solar alone. Then the difference adding batteries made was easy to detect.

Aside from the RF shower coming off the panels array over my main room, the now-utility wall where everything is mounted has two inverters, each of which has both cellular and wifi. The second inverter added to the noise-fighting challenge. It took about a year of experimentation and some system reconfigurations to get back to where I was, noise-wise, before putting a power station on my house.

Phil

@213Cobra Phil - I’m looking into a solar setup with Powerwalls also, and your experience with the ‘RF bath’ is quite concerning to me.

Is your system using microinverters or string inverters? My installer is insistent that the panels themselves (DC) do not generate RF noise but the inverters do, so is pushing me to string inverters placed far from listening room to avoid RFI/EMI.

By this token if you had microinverters under each panel over your main listening room that might account for the ”RF bath”?

 

[213Cobra]

Seatrope,

There is quite extensive evidence that solar panels alone emit EMF, though it's neither dangerous nor extensive. Many SET amps happen to be perfect antennas for it, via their inputs, especially if overhead. The inverters arrangement is certainly aggrativive. In my case; the installation was done in 2017 when micro-inverters were much less common. I have a master inverter mounted on the side of my house not proximate to my listening area. If you are using string inverters it can't hurt to physically keep them as far away as possible. However, if you are not using SET amps, you probably have little to worry about, and I've since found some SET and PSET amps that are not functioning antennas for the noise.

Happy to answer any further questions.

Phil

 

[Steve Williams]

Seatrope,

There is quite extensive evidence that solar panels alone emit EMF, though it's neither dangerous nor extensive. Many SET amps happen to be perfect antennas for it, via their inputs, especially if overhead. The inverters arrangement is certainly aggrativive. In my case; the installation was done in 2017 when micro-inverters were much less common. I have a master inverter mounted on the side of my house not proximate to my listening area. If you are using string inverters it can't hurt to physically keep them as far away as possible. However, if you are not using SET amps, you probably have little to worry about, and I've since found some SET and PSET amps that are not functioning antennas for the noise.

Happy to answer any further questions.

Phil

My system is all tubes and SET amps. There is zero noise in my system from my panels. The micro inverter at each panel takes care of the EMI. A single large inverter at the end of the panels is the culprit in your system. You should look into micro inverters as you will solve your problem. I play my system during daylight so that I am entirely playing on solar power. I have zero EMI and when I tell people that they are listening via solar power, they all say they can hear no difference

 

[213Cobra]

My system is all tubes and SET amps. There is zero noise in my system from my panels. The micro inverter at each panel takes care of the EMI. A single large inverter at the end of the panels is the culprit in your system. You should look into micro inverters as you will solve your problem. I play my system during daylight so that I am entirely playing on solar power. I have zero EMI and when I tell people that they are listening via solar power, they all say they can hear no difference

Experiences are varied. I know of installations with micro-inverters that are noisy and some with large inverter installations that are quiet. Hifi system variables are part of the equation. I eventually solved my problem by finding SET amps that do not function as antennas for the RF noise, and I've yet to find any push-pull tube amps that are susceptible to it. Single-Ended Tetrode and Pentode tube amps also have proven immune thus far.

Phil

 

[Steve Williams]

Mine are totally immune. Micro inverters is the current method of installation

 

[seatrope]

Hi again all. Thanks @Steve Williams and @213Cobra Phil for your perspectives. Unfortunately there are no companies offering to install a microinverter based system in my area of Maine.

Does anyone have any experience with Solaredge inverters or Sol-Ark inverters and their effect on audio?

The only info I'm getting is that most inverters are the transformerless types these days, that use high frequency DSP to synthesize a high resolution sine wave. Not sure how these respond to audio loads and transients. Datasheets state <3% for Sol-Ark on battery and grid-tied, <3% for Solaredge grid-tied and <5% on battery.

I'm planning to have battery backup as well. As noted on another audio forum as an article, some have found subjective improvements when the house is on pure battery power. I guess this again all depends on the inverter (Tesla in the article). What's confusing is Tesla used to use Solaredge inverters and now have moved to their own.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi again all. Thanks @Steve Williams and @213Cobra Phil for your perspectives. Unfortunately there are no companies offering to install a microinverter based system in my area of Maine.

Does anyone have any experience with Solaredge inverters or Sol-Ark inverters and their effect on audio?

The only info I'm getting is that most inverters are the transformerless types these days, that use high frequency DSP to synthesize a high resolution sine wave. Not sure how these respond to audio loads and transients. Datasheets state <3% for Sol-Ark on battery and grid-tied, <3% for Solaredge grid-tied and <5% on battery.

I'm planning to have battery backup as well. As noted on another audio forum as an article, some have found subjective improvements when the house is on pure battery power. I guess this again all depends on the inverter (Tesla in the article). What's confusing is Tesla used to use Solaredge inverters and now have moved to their own.

I find that difficult to believe

Did you call Sun Power or Tesla or Panasonic etc

 

[seatrope]

I find that difficult to believe

Did you call Sun Power or Tesla or Panasonic etc

Yeah none of them do direct work in my area, sadly. Even Tesla is through a 3rd party with huge markup.

 

[Steve Williams]

Don’t settle for anything but a system that has a microinverter with each panel

 

[213Cobra]

Hi again all. Thanks @Steve Williams and @213Cobra Phil for your perspectives. Unfortunately there are no companies offering to install a microinverter based system in my area of Maine.

Does anyone have any experience with Solaredge inverters or Sol-Ark inverters and their effect on audio?

The only info I'm getting is that most inverters are the transformerless types these days, that use high frequency DSP to synthesize a high resolution sine wave. Not sure how these respond to audio loads and transients. Datasheets state <3% for Sol-Ark on battery and grid-tied, <3% for Solaredge grid-tied and <5% on battery.

I'm planning to have battery backup as well. As noted on another audio forum as an article, some have found subjective improvements when the house is on pure battery power. I guess this again all depends on the inverter (Tesla in the article). What's confusing is Tesla used to use Solaredge inverters and now have moved to their own.

In my experience, micro-inverter vs. master inverter is not much of an issue, in part because the master inverter is usually many feet or yards away mounted on a side wall of your house. For example, I have a master-inverter. I have two hifis. The primary hifi directly under the solar panels is the one susceptible to the waterfall of RF noise emitted by the panels when running certain SET amps. The system that is NOT directly under the solar glass but IS CLOSER to the house-mounted wall inverter is unaffected by the power system's RFI.

Don't worry about a sidewall, house-mounted inverter. Worry about RF emitted from panels overhead. They do, in fact, emit. Especially don't worry about what you cannot get. You can get amps that will reject the RFI shower, but that may require a little trial and error.

As for transformerless inverters from the battery feed, similarly don't obsess about it. It's not like a Tesla Powerwall installation makes your system battery powered. You are still going through an inverter one way or another. to send AC to your house. In the nighttime when all is quiet and I am still powered off the Powerwalls, I can convince myself it sounds a little better, but not conclusively better than low-demand nighttime LADWP grid power. You are not going to get perfection just because you install solar and batteries. You can make sure it doesn't get worse and might be improved when you are really listening for it.

Phil