The best sound I have heard was found at Jacob Heilbrunn's house.

bonzo75

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With about 102dB efficiency and an easy impedance of 8ohm (and higher) in a small room, sitting near field (10’ away), you would think 7W is sufficient. It’s not. Sound was lovely but dynamic swings were more sluggish, highs were rolled off, and the lows were not nearly as powerful.

maybe your woofers require more grip to move them. Did you try higher than souga like 20 to 50 watt higher drive SETs?
 

Zeotrope

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maybe your woofers require more grip to move them. Did you try higher than souga like 20 to 50 watt higher drive SETs?
There’s also an active sub below 60Hz, so 7W should be enough. I think more power is better! And I don’t even listen to rock or rap on this system.
No, never tried anything else.
I think it’s more a function of how great the DartZeel components are, rather than a deficiency of the Kondo, if that makes sense.
 

ashandger

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Jun 14, 2013
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Measurements are meaningless. Listen and trust your ears.
Putting the pre and power amps on Seismion active isolation bases took things to another level. As did grounding the 18NS power supply to a Shunyata Altaira Signal Hub. (If ground lift is not enabled, are are still grounding the 18NS to the AC mains, even when running on battery power.)
Is it possible for you to share some details about the improvements you have observed with the Seismic bases under the Dartzeel pre and power amps? Many thanks
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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I should get one to go with the RCA1443 midrange that I’m using. The DartZeel 18NS and 108 were a significant improvement from the Kondo M77 and Souga that were powering the horns before.

I’m leaning towards ordering the XVX for a second media room. I have to say that the midrange of the RCA1443 on a conical horn was better than the XVX. If you haven’t heard this driver, which in my system runs from 500-9000Hz, you should. 5” phenolic/bakelite diaphragm in a 30lbs enclosure. The sound is effortless, with the most natural tone I’ve heard - especially violin, piano, and female voices sound more real than the XVX I auditioned.
I would like to hear it at some point.
 

Zeotrope

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Is it possible for you to share some details about the improvements you have observed with the Seismic bases under the Dartzeel pre and power amps? Many thanks
Yes, absolutely:
Keep in mind I also placed a Seismion under my field coil power supply, and there is a Taiko Daiza base between the component and the Seismion.
Background noise is diminished, notes sound "cleaner", with more delineation between what is quiet and what isn't. The reduced background noise allowed me to distinguish a trumpet player's breath between passages, which was never audible before.
Dynamic passages now have less audible distortion and "smearing" - it sounded great before, but this is now a new level. I used to think that my small room was the reason why loud music would 'overload the room'; that's now gone. It must have been due to vibration of the components.
Soundstage is wider and deeper, with more precise localization; but not overly-precise - it still sounds like live music.
tempImagehVNwc4.jpg
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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In fact we do not see a lot of Dart - although top quality and excellent sounding they are expensive and are a niche product. But our local distributor sells DartZeel and Wilson Audio and I can assure you that a significant number of his clients pair them.

My main issue with DartZeel is price - in an hobby driven by preference and our wallets things are more complicated than just saying it sounds sublime. Also the waiting time for upgrades - I am not a patient audiophile.
Michael Fremer has Dart on his wilson.
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Yes, absolutely:
Keep in mind I also placed a Seismion under my field coil power supply, and there is a Taiko Daiza base between the component and the Seismion.
Background noise is diminished, notes sound "cleaner", with more delineation between what is quiet and what isn't. The reduced background noise allowed me to distinguish a trumpet player's breath between passages, which was never audible before.
Dynamic passages now have less audible distortion and "smearing" - it sounded great before, but this is now a new level. I used to think that my small room was the reason why loud music would 'overload the room'; that's now gone. It must have been due to vibration of the components.
Soundstage is wider and deeper, with more precise localization; but not overly-precise - it still sounds like live music.
View attachment 103721

Do you have some photos of the whole system and sources? I would love to see them if you are comfortable sharing. Looks like an interesting system.
 

my2sons52

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Feb 11, 2017
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Measurements are meaningless. Listen and trust your ears.
Putting the pre and power amps on Seismion active isolation bases took things to another level. As did grounding the 18NS power supply to a Shunyata Altaira Signal Hub. (If ground lift is not enabled, are are still grounding the 18NS to the AC mains, even when running on battery power.)
If i may ask how did you ground using the Shunyata Altaira the DarTZeel preamp in detail, from a open RCA input or extra phono ground screw on pre? Thanks
 
Last edited:

Zeotrope

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If i may ask how did you ground using the Shunyata Altaira the DarTZeel preamp in detail, from a open RCA input or extra phono ground screw on pre? Thanks
I didn't check for conductivity between an RCA (or XLR/BNC) input, only from the power supply. Hervé of DarTZeel says the power supply is disconnected from the preamp when it's running on battery power. And you can certainly hear a relay clicking when you shut off the 18NS, and the battery starts charging again.
However, I suspect that the ground is still connected to the AC ground. You'll note that the 18NS has a ground lift on/off jumper. We also know that @Mike Lavigne has experimented with different power cords on the preamp and noted that they do make a difference. The only way this could be is if the ground noise is affecting the signal. Therefore, I connected the Shunyata ground cable to the Altaira Signal Hub from a chassis screw on the preamp power supply, which is connected to ground (confirmed via a continuity/resistance check). I made a few ground connections at the same time, I never tested just this one, so I can't. say for sure if it made a difference. But the Altaira system made HUGE difference to overall sonic quality.

Shunyata has sent me a new donut-connector to better fit the smaller chassis screws. I will replace how I did it below with this new connector when it arrives.
You can clearly see that the chassis is grounded if you follow the black wire at the back of the chassis:

DarTZeel Preamp PSU internal_2.jpg

DarTZeel PSU ground connection.jpg ground.jpg
 

Zeotrope

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Feb 11, 2021
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Do you have some photos of the whole system and sources? I would love to see them if you are comfortable sharing. Looks like an interesting system.
Thanks. It's been a long but mostly fun, road. Here's how it looked before the Seismion under the 18NS - I will update with a new photo soon.

Taiko Extreme is not visible and the DarTZeel 108 is moving to be closer to the speakers. I also will move out the Brinkmann Bardo soon...

tempImageCMb2ts.jpg
 

Mike Lavigne

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I didn't check for conductivity between an RCA (or XLR/BNC) input, only from the power supply. Hervé of DarTZeel says the power supply is disconnected from the preamp when it's running on battery power. And you can certainly hear a relay clicking when you shut off the 18NS, and the battery starts charging again.
However, I suspect that the ground is still connected to the AC ground. You'll note that the 18NS has a ground lift on/off jumper. We also know that @Mike Lavigne has experimented with different power cords on the preamp and noted that they do make a difference. The only way this could be is if the ground noise is affecting the signal.
there is grounding....and then there is 'GROUNDING'....where you ground the dart pre to a Tripoint Elite grounding box with a Thor ground cable. which is how i do it.

i wish that the dart pre did not sound better with an Absolute Fidelity power cord, compared to a generic one, but it does.

i think we are kidding ourselves to say we know exactly why things happen. especially in the case of a battery powered preamp. Herve does special things to get the performance from these batteries so we can't assume anything. and i know there are impedance issues related to how the battery is wired, things he learned from the Mk1 version of the battery system.....and trying to make it sound better.

you could send Herve an email asking about this. he might say that power cords don't matter. but he would add you just have to try it and listen.:)
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Thanks. It's been a long but mostly fun, road. Here's how it looked before the Seismion under the 18NS - I will update with a new photo soon.

Taiko Extreme is not visible and the DarTZeel 108 is moving to be closer to the speakers. I also will move out the Brinkmann Bardo soon...

View attachment 103727

Very nice. Do you have a photo of the speakers?
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
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I didn't check for conductivity between an RCA (or XLR/BNC) input, only from the power supply. Hervé of DarTZeel says the power supply is disconnected from the preamp when it's running on battery power. And you can certainly hear a relay clicking when you shut off the 18NS, and the battery starts charging again.
However, I suspect that the ground is still connected to the AC ground. You'll note that the 18NS has a ground lift on/off jumper. We also know that @Mike Lavigne has experimented with different power cords on the preamp and noted that they do make a difference. The only way this could be is if the ground noise is affecting the signal. Therefore, I connected the Shunyata ground cable to the Altaira Signal Hub from a chassis screw on the preamp power supply, which is connected to ground (confirmed via a continuity/resistance check). I made a few ground connections at the same time, I never tested just this one, so I can't. say for sure if it made a difference. But the Altaira system made HUGE difference to overall sonic quality.

Shunyata has sent me a new donut-connector to better fit the smaller chassis screws. I will replace how I did it below with this new connector when it arrives.
You can clearly see that the chassis is grounded if you follow the black wire at the back of the chassis:

View attachment 103724

View attachment 103725 View attachment 103726
Similar to my Altaira setup. One cable goes to a chassis screw on the Ref 160 Stereo amplifier.
 
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ashandger

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2013
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Yes, absolutely:
Keep in mind I also placed a Seismion under my field coil power supply, and there is a Taiko Daiza base between the component and the Seismion.
Background noise is diminished, notes sound "cleaner", with more delineation between what is quiet and what isn't. The reduced background noise allowed me to distinguish a trumpet player's breath between passages, which was never audible before.
Dynamic passages now have less audible distortion and "smearing" - it sounded great before, but this is now a new level. I used to think that my small room was the reason why loud music would 'overload the room'; that's now gone. It must have been due to vibration of the components.
Soundstage is wider and deeper, with more precise localization; but not overly-precise - it still sounds like live music.
View attachment 103721
That's wonderful. Many thanks for the feedback.
 
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Zeotrope

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Very nice. Do you have a photo of the speakers?
Yes, I actually started a thread about the speakers, which you can find here:
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Yes, I actually started a thread about the speakers, which you can find here:
Thanks. Very cool setup.
 
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