The Long Memory of Audiophiles

[Lee]

One thing I have been noticing more and more among audiophiles is a long memory of gear quality and performance. This manifests itself in two forms:

1. Audiophiles judge a new product by past products a company has had.

2. Audiophiles tend to have a fondness for a much older product that served as some sort of touchstone to their formative years starting the audio journey.

I am beginning to feel that this is becoming a problem of sorts, albeit an understandable one because of human nature. I will try to address each one…

1. In some ways, judging a company by past products is a good thing. What is the company’s reputation for sound? For innovation? For reliability and service? But there is one big downside and that is an inability to move past weaknesses of older designs. One example is the brightness of older Wilson models that used the inverted dome tweeter. I still get reactions from people when I mention my Alexia Vs….”oh Lee, Wilsons are so bright to my ears and very analytical sounding.” Really? Have you been to a stereo store in twenty years? Another example is tube amps. “I don’t like the missing bass on tube amps.” Really? Have you heard modern tube amps? Audio Research Reference? CAT? Conversely, “I think tubes have better midrange than solid state. Solid state has poor midrange.” Really? Have you heard the Class Pass Labs amps lately? It’s hard to put old prejudices aside but I think we must. Gear has become much better recently and certainly over time. The Rossini Apex is WAY better than the original Rossini. The new Magicos are way better than before. High end audio is producing super high quality, very advanced, aerospace-grade tech and it’s making for eargasms.

2. As Yogi Berra once said,

“Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.”

I go to DIY and older equipment events and, with some exception, the sound is just not good at all. There are certainly examples of things like horn-based approaches sounded good. Avantgarde comes to mind….but reconditioned Bozaks are just not that great friends.

My humble suggestion is that we approach new products with an open mind, regardless of past faults that stood out. Given that materials, parts quality, and engineering approaches are ever getting better, it is time for fresh thinking. That will ensure new products get their rightfully earned time in the spotlight. And it will mean better sound quality for the entire community.

 

[Gregadd]

I have long lamented that there is no linear progression in the development of audio quality. There is rather a scatter-gun approach, Manufacturers stake out a position and claim that is the most important factor. Take cables for example. What is more importsnt? Is it shielding, dielectric, metal?
Often a good path is abandoned for the lates and greatest innovation. Certainly, early solid state was no match for tubes.
I would think a new product should not come on the mar until the it is demonstrated to be better.

 

[Carlos269]

One thing I have been noticing more and more among audiophiles is a long memory of gear quality and performance. This manifests itself in two forms:

1. Audiophiles judge a new product by past products a company has had.

2. Audiophiles tend to have a fondness for a much older product that served as some sort of touchstone to their formative years starting the audio journey.

I am beginning to feel that this is becoming a problem of sorts, albeit an understandable one because of human nature. I will try to address each one…

1. In some ways, judging a company by past products is a good thing. What is the company’s reputation for sound? For innovation? For reliability and service? But there is one big downside and that is an inability to move past weaknesses of older designs. One example is the brightness of older Wilson models that used the inverted dome tweeter. I still get reactions from people when I mention my Alexia Vs….”oh Lee, Wilsons are so bright to my ears and very analytical sounding.” Really? Have you been to a stereo store in twenty years? Another example is tube amps. “I don’t like the missing bass on tube amps.” Really? Have you heard modern tube amps? Audio Research Reference? CAT? Conversely, “I think tubes have better midrange than solid state. Solid state has poor midrange.” Really? Have you heard the Class Pass Labs amps lately? It’s hard to put old prejudices aside but I think we must. Gear has become much better recently and certainly over time. The Rossini Apex is WAY better than the original Rossini. The new Magicos are way better than before. High end audio is producing super high quality, very advanced, aerospace-grade tech and it’s making for eargasms.

2. As Yogi Berra once said,

“Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.”

I go to DIY and older equipment events and, with some exception, the sound is just not good at all. There are certainly examples of things like horn-based approaches sounded good. Avantgarde comes to mind….but reconditioned Bozaks are just not that great friends.

My humble suggestion is that we approach new products with an open mind, regardless of past faults that stood out. Given that materials, parts quality, and engineering approaches are ever getting better, it is time for fresh thinking. That will ensure new products get their rightfully earned time in the spotlight. And it will mean better sound quality for the entire community.

Your stance doesn’t surprise me given that the nature of the business of the publication that you used to represent, and which now you contribute to, is to inform of and sell new products.

You speak of your Studio experience frequently, I’m not sure how long you have been an audiophile and in the hobby, but those of use that have been in it for 35 plus years will tell you that there have been great sounding equipment and components since the 70’s, and even before that look at Western Electric, Siemens/Klangfilm, Vitavox, Altec, TAD, and others, that withstand the test of time and compete favorably with contemporary components and systems.

So I see your stance for what it is in trying to sell advertisements in the magazine that you were affiliated with, but it doesn’t hold much water beyond that.

 

[Lee]

Your stance doesn’t surprise me given that the nature of the business of the publication that you used to represent, and which now you contribute to, is to inform of and sell new products.

You speak of your Studio experience frequently, I’m not sure how long you have been an audiophile and in the hobby, but those of use that have been in it for 35 plus years will tell you that there have been great sounding equipment and components since the 70’s, and even before that look at Western Electric, Siemens/Klangfilm, Vitavox, Altec, TAD, and others, that withstand the test of time and compete favorably with contemporary components and systems.

So I see your stance for what it is in trying to sell advertisements in the magazine that you were affiliated with, but it doesn’t hold much water beyond that.

Carlos, I've been an audiophile since 1978 when I was very young. My comments about long memory are an honest observation, not anything connected to TAS or its advertisers. My goal was to suggest that audiophiles should keep an open mind about new products and not be influenced unduly about prior impressions of earlier product.

It's an honest recognition of the technology advances that occur often in source, electronics, and speaker design.

 

[Al M.]

It's an honest recognition of the technology advances that occur often in source, electronics, and speaker design.

Yes, technology advances, for the better. I am not one of those guys longing for the "good ole days".

 

[Lagonda]

Or should the title be "The short memory of reviewers" ? Sure audio products improve, but not by the leaps and bounds that the audio press is always insinuating. Paying double the price for a slight improvement from one generation speaker to the next is a hard sell, and sell you must ! What happened to the "end of the game" product you where selling 2 years ago !

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, technology advances, for the better. I am not one of those guys longing for the "good ole days".

you should also stop listening to Led Zep, Beethoven, Bach, etc

 

[bonzo75]

Al’s nostalgia is probably disco

 

[jeff1225]

Your stance doesn’t surprise me given that the nature of the business of the publication that you used to represent, and which now you contribute to, is to inform of and sell new products.

You speak of your Studio experience frequently, I’m not sure how long you have been an audiophile and in the hobby, but those of use that have been in it for 35 plus years will tell you that there have been great sounding equipment and components since the 70’s, and even before that look at Western Electric, Siemens/Klangfilm, Vitavox, Altec, TAD, and others, that withstand the test of time and compete favorably with contemporary components and systems.

So I see your stance for what it is in trying to sell advertisements in the magazine that you were affiliated with, but it doesn’t hold much water beyond that.

You've inadvertently come to the correct answer to the current issue with high end consumer audio: Western Electric, Siemens/Klangfilm, Vitavox, Altec, TAD, (you forgot Tannoy), were/are commercial companies who's consumer division was an afterthought of the main enterprise. R&D is spent against maximum ROI, and the maximum ROI was for the commercial applications in theatres, public places, studios, etc.

In the UK the word "Tannoy" is a direct generalized replacement for the word speaker, just like the brand name "Kleenex" is a direct generalized replacement for tissue in the USA.

 

[Al M.]

you should also stop listening to Led Zep, Beethoven, Bach, etc

What do these have to do with technology?

Anyways, while I love all the above, I also listen to hardcore contemporary classical, music that you would run away from. But you also don't even like Bartok, so you have a bit of catching up to do.

I also like more traditional-melodical new classical music, like this one, composed by Caroline Shaw, with Anne Sophie von Otter singing:

 

[Al M.]

Al’s nostalgia is probably disco

LOL

But honestly, I love some of it, for example this one, totally brilliant:

 

[Lee]

Or should the title be "The short memory of reviewers" ? Sure audio products improve, but not by the leaps and bounds that the audio press is always insinuating. Paying double the price for a slight improvement from one generation speaker to the next is a hard sell, and sell you must ! What happened to the "end of the game" product you where selling 2 years ago !

Who and what are you referencing here Lagonda?

Also, which new speaker version doubled in price?

 

[Lagonda]

Who and what are you referencing here Lagonda?

Also, which new speaker version doubled in price?

The audio press in general, i will not be naming names ! As for speakers, lets just pick the top offerings from your favorite manufacturers, Magico and Wilson being sold north of half a million. I know you are looking forward to pushing their 2 million dollar models soon. One small step forward, one giant leap for mankind !

 

[PeterA]

Carlos, I've been an audiophile since 1978 when I was very young. My comments about long memory are an honest observation, not anything connected to TAS or its advertisers. My goal was to suggest that audiophiles should keep an open mind about new products and not be influenced unduly about prior impressions of earlier product.

It's an honest recognition of the technology advances that occur often in source, electronics, and speaker design.

I agree with an open mind Lee. Conversely, one should not summarily dismiss older products. Some are quite good and represent great value in today’s market. The same should be said about power cords and cables. One can find real satisfaction with secondhand and older products if chosen carefully.

 

[mtemur]

I still get reactions from people when I mention my Alexia Vs….”oh Lee, Wilsons are so bright to my ears and very analytical sounding.” Really? Have you been to a stereo store in twenty years? Another example is tube amps. “I don’t like the missing bass on tube amps.” Really? Have you heard modern tube amps? Audio Research Reference? CAT? Conversely, “I think tubes have better midrange than solid state. Solid state has poor midrange.” Really? Have you heard the Class Pass Labs amps lately? It’s hard to put old prejudices aside but I think we must.

When I read the examples you get from people a very obvious one popped on my mind “how can you listen vinyl, it’s noisy and lacks bass?”

It’s hard to fight against prejudice and preconceptions.

Gear has become much better recently and certainly over time. The Rossini Apex is WAY better than the original Rossini. The new Magicos are way better than before. High end audio is producing super high quality, very advanced, aerospace-grade tech and it’s making for eargasms.

I don’t know if hi-end audio is very advanced to aerospace-grade or not but it’s sure the prices are at aerospace-grade. It’s like buying an airplane.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Also nicely machined with a lot of carbon plus a great sound , for just over 200K

Since when are nicely machined parts and a lot of carbon synchronous for good hifi / sound value
.

 

[microstrip]

I have long lamented that there is no linear progression in the development of audio quality. There is rather a scatter-gun approach, Manufacturers stake out a position and claim that is the most important factor. Take cables for example. What is more importsnt? Is it shielding, dielectric, metal?

Why are you asking questions that everyone knows that have no possible answer? We can not rank such factors - a cable is a balance of many factors, all its characteristics are imperative.

Often a good path is abandoned for the lates and greatest innovation. Certainly, early solid state was no match for tubes.
I would think a new product should not come on the mar until the it is demonstrated to be better.

We can't forget that we listen to systems, not to isolated products. How does a manufacturer demonstrate that a product is "better"?

As long as people forget that stereo is an individual experience and the only possible way to rank it is the statistical analysis in a community most of our discussions on "better" are a cul de sac. In the high-end "better" is just a nice word in the name of a popular high-end forum!

 

[Kingrex]

The audio press in general, i will not be naming names ! As for speakers, lets just pick the top offerings from your favorite manufacturers, Magico and Wilson being sold north of half a million. I know you are looking forward to pushing their 2 million dollar models soon. One small step forward, one giant leap for mankind !

When they hit $1M I will have to consider a pair as they would have to sound good. Owe wait, is that $1M each or a pair?

 

[microstrip]

(...) It's an honest recognition of the technology advances that occur often in source, electronics, and speaker design.

From time to time, as many others I am guilty of nostalgia and when some great classic equipment I loved shows in the market at very reduced price I can't resist - Audio Research SP8, D70, Electrocompaniet, Leak, Spendors, Thorens or Garrard - and I re-assemble an "old" system with great hope. Unfortunately playing it side by side with my current system shows the difference - the new system carries much more information in a way I really prefer.

For example, if we compare a SoundLab A1 of the 80's with a current A1 the difference is enormous - much better bass delineation, more extended treble and much better soundstage and focus.

 

[Gregadd]

Why are you asking questions that everyone knows that have no possible answer? We can not rank such factors - a cable is a balance of many factors, all its characteristics are imperative.



We can't forget that we listen to systems, not to isolated products. How does a manufacturer demonstrate that a product is "better"?

As long as people forget that stereo is an individual experience and the only possible way to rank it is the statistical analysis in a community most of our discussions on "better" are a cul de sac. In the high-end "better" is just a nice word in the name of a popular high-end forum!

We can always dream.
if we think of real music as a point in the universethere an infinite number of views. One is correct.