the VAC Von Schweikert Room

[cjfrbw]

When I heard similar VS system with the big guns at California Audio Show a couple of years ago, I thought they sounded nice, but they never turned the volume up much, so aside from show conditions, they were hard to evaluate from the +85db range and up.

I think with the edifice systems, you have to consider the mission goals: filling up a very large space with full, uncompressed, vivid dynamics. Such a system requires a lot of careful set up. When achieved, yes, they can sound magnificent beyond the capabilities of smaller systems in smaller rooms, especially at higher volumes.

I have heard edifice systems sound like duds, but I just assumed they weren't set up properly in the correct space.

 

[Gregadd]

Jack
you mke some valid points. That was a massive room. Ballroom size. I think the speakers were too far apart and the seating position to disitant. Of course when you are functioning at the level of the VR11Ultra there are no excuses. There are no compromises. I am pretty sure that was their goal. IMO they just missed the mark.

 

[Al M.]

Jack, good points. There is one thing though that should not be forgotten: when speakers are too far apart, tonality can suffer. Also Jim Smith points this out if I am not mistaken. If you want fuller sound, putting the speakers closer together may be beneficial in some cases. So when you talk about wanting consistent tonality over a large area at a show, fine, but the question becomes, does that 'consistent tonality' have the character you want.

 

[DaveC]

Jack
you mke some valid points. That was a massive room. Ballroom size. I think the speakers were too far apart and the seating position to disitant. Of course when you are functioning at the level of the VR11Ultra there are no excuses. There are no compromises. I am pretty sure that was their goal. IMO they just missed the mark.

In some ways sure... uncompromising attention to detail, pride in craftsmanship, choosing the best parts possible, etc... but there are always compromises in both speaker design and setup for shows.

 

[JackD201]

Jack, good points. There is one thing though that should not be forgotten: when speakers are too far apart, tonality can suffer. Also Jim Smith points this out if I am not mistaken. If you want fuller sound, putting the speakers closer together may be beneficial in some cases. So when you talk about wanting consistent tonality over a large area at a show, fine, but the question becomes, does that 'consistent tonality' have the character you want.

With VSAs and other speakers that are very consistent to the 180 degree mark, midbass density rather than tonality is where one would spot this most. More directional speakers which have less of a summing area typically have a narrower range of inter speaker distance flexibility and thus are placed accordingly and with regularity. The concentric array or semi concentrics like say a Q7 Mk2 also helps with having a wider usable range given that the higher mounted bass drivers will have different floor reflection characteristics.

What is most sensitive is the degree of focus because the side scallops on the baffles are designed to do just that, direct the sideward radiation. Where the arcs intercept at the exact center will give a maximum of 3dB at perfect sum in free space. The angle at which they intersect determines the position of that sum zone. That the exhibitors chose to fire straight forward (confirmed prior to this show) illustrates that the intention was to give a wide off axis spread (hence fillig up that cavernous space) at the same time moving the center area forward to the speaker plane. Toe in moves the sum area behind the plane and concentrates the effect giving sharper images, more depth and sometimes more hight depending on the front wall. This is how most of us listen at home, myself included as we set up for lack of better words, more selfish satisfaction. I have toe in of about 15 degrees. At 20 degrees the images become too sharp for my tastes. I go more than 20 degrees with monitors so it really depends on the speaker's radiation pattern and where our personal sweet spots are.

Now which is better is debatable. Live is pretty diffuse. It's our eyes that aid in localization. It's more about the sensations or sense of energy rather than positioning. The soloist is right there well, because he actually is right there LOL In the same breath I wouldn't set up this "live" way if I was indeed trying to manage the less obvious musical lines and not just taking in the totality. Ultimately we operate within a spectrum and we just choose the "compromise" with regards to focus and depth of field. In my experience this spectrum carries a lot of variance between listener preferences so we circle back inevitably to "it depends". In this case, it depends on what exactly we are after in the first place.

 

[JackD201]

Jack
you mke some valid points. That was a massive room. Ballroom size. I think the speakers were too far apart and the seating position to disitant. Of course when you are functioning at the level of the VR11Ultra there are no excuses. There are no compromises. I am pretty sure that was their goal. IMO they just missed the mark.

I don't see them making any excuses really, if anything they never claimed it would be all things to all people all the time. Obviously the venue would be atypical under any conditions. Just like the end user, the exhibitors just need to work with the hand dealt them. I think they should be congratulated given that in my personal experience with the U11 and its forebear which are designed for spaces not much more than a hundred square meters at most, they actually did according to all various reports, fill the space admirably.

I get that you feel like at the price of the goods there that perfect would be the expectation and I don't blame you. I've got a comparable outlay at home and you can bet your left nut I'm not going to take any excuses. Nothing wrong with holding them to very high standards. Anyone making and offering such products should be held to standards like that. Still, judgement calls are needed and they were made. We make 'em, we live with them. Having set up systems along with Leif and one more with Damon, the three of us all differ in what we want our final outcomes are when it comes to certain aspects of the presentation. That's par for the course.

Luckily as end users we get to make those calls as opposed to having it made for us. I have no doubt that if you were part of the team, or an end user of this system, the flexibility afforded from the front end on to the loudspeakers would easily get you out of the underwhelmed zone.

Experienced as I am with each individual component I use, it still took me a couple of weeks to get my system where I wanted it. The important thing for me is that I got there even if I must admit, getting there was actually a whole lot of fun.

 

[Gregadd]

"I don't think you would be disappointed if you purchased one of the systems they were offering. I have no doubt they could make it shine in your room. I just think they bit off more than they could chew. My opinion of course."

Gregadd

Jack that is a quote from my initial report on the VAC/VS exhibit at CAF 2018. i prefer to think their is a flaw in the execution of the exhibit equipment.

 

[Gregadd]

In some ways sure... uncompromising attention to detail, pride in craftsmanship, choosing the best parts possible, etc... but there are always compromises in both speaker design and setup for shows.

I would go you one further. There is a;so a limit in the SOTTA. The standard however, remains the same for such an all out design.

 

[Leif S]

Just so everyone is clear....

You will never see me make any excuses lol

Not only was I extremely pleased with the performance of this system, so was Kevin Hayes of VAC as well as The Audio Company. It was their system we were using. There are always people who are not impressed as we can see because their comments are about this system at different shows and they weren't impressed there either. But the feedback from so many of the visitors is they have never experienced a system like this ever. So the many outweigh the few by a very large margin.

As far as setup is concerned, Jack nailed it! We set the system up so it completely filled the room from side to side just like a live event. We also started with the speakers much closer together and all of us preferred them further apart for this room. And no there was no change in tonality from the different locations. Our speakers don't change in tonality. If you are looking for that hi-fi sound, then our speaker are probably not for you, but the ULTRA 11 and ULTRA 9 can be adjusted to sound like that given their adjust ability. I have never liked the HI-FI sound. I suppose this comes from being a front of house engineer for 35 years and a professional musician.

 

[Leif S]

Just for fun we pulled a pair of E-3MkII's out and set them up next to the 11's and disconnected the 11's and only ran the E-3's. Did anyone here on the forum get to hear this?

 

[Al M.]

With VSAs and other speakers that are very consistent to the 180 degree mark, midbass density rather than tonality is where one would spot this most. More directional speakers which have less of a summing area typically have a narrower range of inter speaker distance flexibility and thus are placed accordingly and with regularity. The concentric array or semi concentrics like say a Q7 Mk2 also helps with having a wider usable range given that the higher mounted bass drivers will have different floor reflection characteristics.

What is most sensitive is the degree of focus because the side scallops on the baffles are designed to do just that, direct the sideward radiation. Where the arcs intercept at the exact center will give a maximum of 3dB at perfect sum in free space. The angle at which they intersect determines the position of that sum zone. That the exhibitors chose to fire straight forward (confirmed prior to this show) illustrates that the intention was to give a wide off axis spread (hence fillig up that cavernous space) at the same time moving the center area forward to the speaker plane. Toe in moves the sum area behind the plane and concentrates the effect giving sharper images, more depth and sometimes more hight depending on the front wall. This is how most of us listen at home, myself included as we set up for lack of better words, more selfish satisfaction. I have toe in of about 15 degrees. At 20 degrees the images become too sharp for my tastes. I go more than 20 degrees with monitors so it really depends on the speaker's radiation pattern and where our personal sweet spots are.

Thanks for the explanation, Jack.

Now which is better is debatable. Live is pretty diffuse. It's our eyes that aid in localization. It's more about the sensations or sense of energy rather than positioning. The soloist is right there well, because he actually is right there LOL In the same breath I wouldn't set up this "live" way if I was indeed trying to manage the less obvious musical lines and not just taking in the totality. Ultimately we operate within a spectrum and we just choose the "compromise" with regards to focus and depth of field. In my experience this spectrum carries a lot of variance between listener preferences so we circle back inevitably to "it depends". In this case, it depends on what exactly we are after in the first place.

It depends if live sounds diffuse or not. If you are far enough from the performers so that reflected sound overtakes the contribution of direct sound, then yes, it's diffuse. An orchestra from mid-hall perspective is one big mono. If I sit close enough though, then I can quite nicely localize individual performers or instrument groups -- with eyes closed. Even more so perhaps with a small ensemble of 10-20 players in a smaller venue, if I sit upfront.

 

[Leif S]

Thanks for the explanation, Jack.



It depends if live sounds diffuse or not. If you are far enough from the performers so that reflected sound overtakes the contribution of direct sound, then yes, it's diffuse. An orchestra from mid-hall perspective is one big mono. If I sit close enough though, then I can quite nicely localize individual performers or instrument groups -- with eyes closed. Even more so perhaps with a small ensemble of 10-20 players in a smaller venue, if I sit upfront.

The thing is the sound wasn't diffused. Still had a strong center image and the instruments had fantastic separation. We could have made center image even stronger but we chose not to

 

[Al M.]

The thing is the sound wasn't diffused. Still had a strong center image and the instruments had fantastic separation. We could have made center image even stronger but we chose not to

Good to hear! My point though was more generally about localization live vs. reproduced. Given my live experiences sitting close-up I also prefer clearer image outlines. Not pin-point though; this is a sometimes found recording artifact which is transmitted as such by some speakers, less so by others. The ones that do are more accurate in imaging, in my view, but I could just as well live without this recording artifact.

 

[JackD201]

Thanks for the explanation, Jack.



It depends if live sounds diffuse or not. If you are far enough from the performers so that reflected sound overtakes the contribution of direct sound, then yes, it's diffuse. An orchestra from mid-hall perspective is one big mono. If I sit close enough though, then I can quite nicely localize individual performers or instrument groups -- with eyes closed. Even more so perhaps with a small ensemble of 10-20 players in a smaller venue, if I sit upfront.

That's all true Al. In fact I think what you're saying is very insightful. As we choose our preferred presentations for reproduction, it parallels our choice of seats at a live event. Personally I like being between front row and mid hall in an unamplified event but closer to mid hall. In amplified concerts, the dirty little secret if you want best sound is to not mind not being close enough to see the sweat on your favorite artists' brows and instead to stay as close to the FOH engineer's booth as you can because he's got the best seat in the house. His job is to try and take that sound and replicate it across the entire venue as he sets up the arrays and delay lines thereby maximizing pleasure for everyone from the front row to those in the nosebleed seats. Having done FOH myself, it is no easy task and some seats will be better than others but that remains the goal.

We have to remember that these are "shows" in the true sense of the word. Solo or small group private auditions differ because in this case interaction with the audience is encouraged so the audience can participate in forming the presentation to their liking. In shows we can't stop and tweak for the individuals so we just do what we can and let things run its course until perhaps an opportunity arises when we can make adjustments if needed. The show must go on .

 

[JackD201]

We could have made center image even stronger but we chose not to

I knows ya too well brother

 

[Holli82]

Just for fun we pulled a pair of E-3MkII's out and set them up next to the 11's and disconnected the 11's and only ran the E-3's. Did anyone here on the forum get to hear this?

I did and I thought they sounded fantastic. These speakers punch well above their weight.

 

[Leif S]

I knows ya too well brother

Lol.....
Probably better than most

 

[Gregadd]

\

 

[Gregadd]

taken from VON SCHWEIKERT website for Ultra VR11"
"Extremely low disistortion, class-defining distortion, THREE DIMENSIONAL IMAGE FOCUS,[ emphasis SUPP;IED] and lush harmonic structure set a new worls standard."

 

[Al M.]

As we choose our preferred presentations for reproduction, it parallels our choice of seats at a live event. Personally I like being between front row and mid hall in an unamplified event but closer to mid hall.

Yes, we all have our own individual preferences and tailor our systems according to them! Listening to our friends' systems is an opportunity to celebrate this diversity.