This Corona Virus Mania is Just Too Much, We All Need to Chill!

[PeterA]

That's a false equivalent. I as an individual, and speaking for most of us here, are NOT experts on infectious disease and pandemics. However, many people are, and they gave A LOT of warning to those who lead us (not just the USA). Trump said this was unexpected and came out of nowhere at one point, but this is absolutely not true. It's expected, and warnings have been vehement and have come from many sources. Previously, I posted a vid that gave 8 specific warnings to the US Federal Government since Trump took office in 2016, it was removed for being political but this is the truth, the response from our government as well as others has been nothing but massively negligent and incompetent.

I will agree with Steve's previous assertion in green that we don't go down this road as far as blame, but your post is so wrong it required a response. I also don't agree with the "we need to concentrate on X and not Y". The truth is we can do more than one thing at once. While I agree it's not a good idea to assign blame here in this thread, blame needs to be assigned for this so we can plan on never going through anything like this again.

Dave, we can go back and choose our experts. The WHO made comments, and news leaked out of Wuhan and then China. Individuals heard these reports and country leaders heard them. And yet, responses have been different and hardly universal, around the globe. That is all I am saying. The same reports went out and got circulated. And yet, responses varied.

If we are demanding a cohesive and swift response of the US, then we must surely be demanding it of other nations individually. Or is it not our place to criticize others? Why not demand a cohesive and swift response globally? Why not criticize countries for not acting as we would have the US act?

I agree that we should not assign blame here and now. But when we do, will the criticism be targeted, will it be more universal and general, and how far back do we go when assigning blame? Will we blame individual citizens, leaders, countries, origins? Those are questions worth pondering, it seems to me, but maybe for another time.

Right now we only seem to be criticizing our own leader's response and the blame has begun.

 

[twitch]

I would like to point out that expert worry-worts "that we all should have listened to" are the same type that will push a vaccine out 2 years. Sometimes you need something in-between or an outside perspective that encompasses more things.

someone say vaccine............

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...on-world-trial-coronavirus-vaccine-describes/

a stock buy perhaps ...........

https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases

 

[Folsom]

To whom are you referring? There is a process for creating a vaccine and making sure it is safe. Are you saying some people want to extend that period beyond what is necessary?

I'm trying to point out that if you think it's best to take precautions as best as possible, from experts, no precaution spared as early and effective as possible... It's the exact opposite to ask an expert in a different field to toss all the data and precautions to the wind to pump out a vaccine.

An expert on pandemic concerns will say lockdown to the Nth degree upon even a rumor of a viral outbreak. An expert on vaccines will say take the proper time and precautions before releasing. That's why most vaccines have taken VERY long amounts of time to be made.

It's hypocritical to cherry pick expert opinions/statements/precautions and ignore outside factors from differently privy positions.

Anyone who has experience with development of anything knows that some things will never get done without a push to weigh the precautions. The reverse effect really is no different.

To answer your direct question, the expert opinion on "what is necessary" is very different from what you want to hear. That is precisely why people say a rushed one could take a lot longer than we want - their necessary is much longer than yours. SO if you were in charge of a country, would you circumvent the opinion of an expert knowing what's at stake?

 

[PeterA]

While as individuals we acted differently, we made our decision from the same framework of risk assessment of something that was known by then to the general public, and we acted at the same time, though not in the same manner. This is different from ignoring knowledge of the risk by others prior to knowledge by the general public, and not acting on the risk at all. As Dave said, false equivalency.

Al, we did not act at the same time, nor did we respond in the same way. I agree that we had the same, or extremely similar, information. The point is that with that information, we behaved differently, the details of which are not important to my point.

I agree that we were not privy to intelligence nor are we responsible for a nation of citizens. Neither of us has that burden or challenge that our leaders do.

 

[PeterA]

Not going to happen, the public pressure will be too great.

Public pressure indeed on much of the response to this pandemic.

 

[Folsom]

Guys, no more beans while in captivity!

DEADLY coronavirus could be spreading through farts, doctors believe.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/researchers-spot-worrying-new-coronavirus-21850413

Does this mean @Lagonda will wear underwear for the first time in 40 years?

 

[Lagonda]

Does this mean @Lagonda will wear underwear for the first time in 40 years?

Folsom, i am regretfully forced to wear underwear, if not my knees get chafed.

 

[PeterA]

A German will self-identify as German first and foremost, only to a lesser degree as European. A person from Massachusetts will self-identify as American, and only secondarily as resident of Massachusetts.

I think a Californian or Texan may feel differently. I have tenants who don't identify at all as American, even though they have been here for years. Their children were born here, they are American and most of them have green cards. No, when they tell me they are going on vacation, they tell me they are going to "their" country. I thought they came here to become a part of a new country. I do think a sense of national identity is stronger in Europe than in many parts of the US, and from what I read, it is only becoming stronger in individual countries in Europe.

I get the German identifying more as a German than a European, and much less as a member of the EU. Are you advocating that there be no cohesive response by the countries of Europe, but rather individual responses, all separate and determined by their citizens and leaders? This also seems to be what some people advocate here, by the defense of Governors taking the lead for their own citizens.

I watched a live broadcast of Gov Cuomo today during lunch in which he lead a discussion among a coalition of six neighboring states to act as one regional cohesive group, determining how and when they will reopen their regional economy. One governor, I think of RI, said that the virus does not respect borders, and yet, borders are being shut around many countries. So yes, I see how the states are not like the countries in Europe, but increasingly, it seems like this region is acting like a group of states within our country.

 

[Al M.]

Al, we did not act at the same time, nor did we respond in the same way. I agree that we had the same, or extremely similar, information. The point is that with that information, we behaved differently, the details of which are not important to my point.

We did act at the same time, Peter, with social distancing, and we implemented it differently only in minor details, compared to the overall bigger picture.

I agree that we were not privy to intelligence nor are we responsible for a nation of citizens. Neither of us has that burden or challenge that our leaders do.

Indeed, but we both still take our responsibility to our fellow citizens seriously. That's all we can do.

 

[Ron Resnick]

On January 14, W.H.O. tweeted that “preliminary investigations” by Chinese authorities had found no evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Then the W.H.O. declined to call the outbreak in China a public-health emergency of international concern on January 22, at the same time there were confirmed cases in Taiwan, Australia, Japan, Thailand, and South Korea. After the W.H.O. finally declared the emergency, it proceeded to drag its feet on declaring a pandemic, waiting until March 12.

As a headline in Reuters put it in early February, “WHO chief says widespread travel bans not needed to beat China virus.”

Isn't the W.H.O. an international public health "expert" which the political leaders of all countries were supposed to believe and to follow?

 

[Folsom]

I think a Californian or Texan may feel differently. I have tenants who don't identify at all as American, even though they have been here for years. Their children were born here, they are American and most of them have green cards. No, when they tell me they are going on vacation, they tell me they are going to "their" country. I thought they came here to become a part of a new country. I do think a sense of national identity is stronger in Europe than in many parts of the US, and from what I read, it is only becoming stronger in individual countries in Europe.

I get the German identifying more as a German than a European, and much less as a member of the EU. Are you advocating that there be no cohesive response by the countries of Europe, but rather individual responses, all separate and determined by their citizens and leaders? This also seems to be what some people advocate here, by the defense of Governors taking the lead for their own citizens.

I watched a live broadcast of Gov Cuomo today during lunch in which he lead a discussion among a coalition of six neighboring states to act as one regional cohesive group, determining how and when they will reopen their regional economy. One governor, I think of RI, said that the virus does not respect borders, and yet, borders are being shut around many countries. So yes, I see how the states are not like the countries in Europe, but increasingly, it seems like this region is acting like a group of states within our country.

I suspect some tensions will rise between the West and East side of WA and OR. There has been plenty of problems already between them.

 

[dminches]

On January 14, W.H.O. tweeted that “preliminary investigations” by Chinese authorities had found no evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Then the W.H.O.declined to call the outbreak in China a public-health emergency of international concern on January 22, at the same time there were confirmed cases in Taiwan, Australia, Japan, Thailand, and South Korea. After the W.H.O. finally declared the emergency, it proceeded to drag its feet on declaring a pandemic, waiting until March 12.

As a headline in Reuters put it in early February, “WHO chief says widespread travel bans not needed to beat China virus.”

Isn't the W.H.O. an international public health "expert" which the political leaders of all countries were supposed to believe and to follow?

Ron, Taiwan started to plan in December 2019 and shut down any travel from China by the end of March. They aren’t even part of WHO but had enough information to react. I don’t think they knew more than any other country did.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, Taiwan started to plan in December 2019 and shut down any travel from China by the end of March. They aren’t even part of WHO but had enough information to react. I don’t think they knew more than any other country did.

Taiwan distinguished itself in many ways throughout this entire process. But that is not relevant to the question I asked.

Your reply suggests that you reluctantly concede that the W.H.O. has been a politicized source of public health misinformation, at least from the beginning and through the middle of this global health crisis.

 

[dminches]

Taiwan distinguished itself in many ways throughout this entire process. But that is not relevant to the question I asked.

Your reply suggests that you reluctantly concede that the W.H.O. has been a politicized source of public health misinformation, at least from the beginning and through the middle of this global health crisis.

I really know nothing about the WHO and how they operate, so no. All I can compare is how each country reacted. South Korea also seemed to react quickly. They shut down the area which showed infections and did extensive testing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I suspect some tensions will rise between the West and East side of WA and OR. There has been plenty of problems already between them.

at this point the main tension is the dense metro area residents of western Washington and northwestern Oregon going to second homes in rural eastern Washington and Oregon. year round eastern residents are worried about getting infected. not any fundamental disagreement regarding social distancing.

and the coastal beach resort communities of both Washington and Oregon have closed down to non-residents.

it's not blue/red political as it normally seems to be.

below shows 3 Washington counties of Western Washington, King, Pierce and Snohomish, with 80%+ of the State residents, with the vast majority of cases and deaths.

 

[Lagonda]

Taiwan distinguished itself in many ways throughout this entire process. But that is not relevant to the question I asked.

Your reply suggests that you reluctantly concede that the W.H.O. has been a politicized source of public health misinformation, at least from the beginning and through the middle of this global health crisis.

Here is a timeline for what WHO knew and made public, including recommendations for preparing responses in Europe, i am sure the US was notified in the same timeline.
http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-t...-19/news/news/news?root_node_selection=427762

 

[rbbert]

I don't think there is much doubt that (for whatever reason, and several have been proposed) the WHO "dropped the ball", and did not make public announcements about the severity of this illness in a timely fashion. The information was out there for others to (correctly) interpret, which S. Korea and Taiwan did, and Italy (notably) did not. Why the US continued to putter around and fail to take decisive action with those examples staring us in the face is another question with no good answer.

 

[twitch]

I'm with Bill on this ...........

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/...t-the-chinas-coronavirus/#.XpJzIZo9YZg.mailto

 

[rbbert]

As Steve pointed out, this is not a medical forum, and inappropriate and incorrect posts about a vaccine timeline display incredible ignorance. There have been links put up here which indicate that regardless of multiple vaccines beginning tests, no one has a good idea yet of what these proposed vaccines are supposed to do. So the Phase I tests beginning now are solely for the purpose of determining safety and to elucidate what (if any) immune response is generated by the vaccine. Whether or not that response will be protective in any way is totally unknown, and until it is testing can't even proceed to Phase II, much less Phase III, FDA approval and then production.

 

[Folsom]

at this point the main tension is the dense metro area residents of western Washington and northwestern Oregon going to second homes in rural eastern Washington and Oregon. year round eastern residents are worried about getting infected. not any fundamental disagreement regarding social distancing.

and the coastal beach resort communities of both Washington and Oregon have closed down to non-residents.

it's not blue/red political as it normally seems to be.

below shows 3 Washington counties of Western Washington, King, Pierce and Snohomish, with 80%+ of the State residents, with the vast majority of cases and deaths.

View attachment 63955

I agree it's not all about blue/red. But for instance in the off season from viruses the west side sucks up a lot of the funding for our roads that get put on hold. Also people on the east side feel pretty mixed about paying for stuff like stadiums they'll never use. The list goes on and on... it includes stuff like dead King county residents voting, and issues like banning hunting dogs for cougars (caused major issues on the east side).

It seems reasonable to suspect totally new subjects will come up... really fun ones. Having people coming over and spreading what isn't here is probably the start.