To switch or not to switch? Melco S-100 or Innuos Phoenix NET switch?

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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normally, the direct ethernet connection with Nds and Melco is: Melco, lan port connected to the switch and Melco player lan port connected to the Nds/ Nd555.
it’s what I have now, and also before. The Innuos, or Etheregen before, connected to the router.

the second possibility is: Switch connected to the router and both Nds and Melco connected to the switch. it‘s what I tried but it doesn’t work.

third possibility : what you suggested. Melco connected to the router, then Melco to switch and Nds to switch. It’s not a direct connecting between Nds and Melco. And the problem is that you connect the Melco to the router directly, which is not the best for isolating the Melco from noise.

i will try the Mconnect app when home. Maybe it will work.


for those interested, my first impressions after 4 hours run in: vs the ER/ linear ps ( 800 euros MCRU pinnacle), the Innuos PhoenixNet is for now a bit more dynamic. The real difference for now is the low end and bass, better defined and present.
 

Gunnar

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I am sure the Phoenix will improve further during the weekend.

I am not an expert of which one should be closest to the streamer. For me it ended up with the ER/Farad Super3 just before the streamer. Sounded better. A question of trying. My unprofessional guess is that it’s an “advantage” that the best switch being closest to the streamer. I guess that my ER as switch is better than the switch in my Melco N1Z /1.
 

Frenchrooster

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I am sure the Phoenix will improve further during the weekend.

I am not an expert of which one should be closest to the streamer. For me it ended up with the ER/Farad Super3 just before the streamer. Sounded better. A question of trying. My unprofessional guess is that it’s an “advantage” that the best switch being closest to the streamer. I guess that my ER as switch is better than the switch in my Melco N1Z /1.
I had the ER/ Farad 3 then ER/ MCRU pinnacle. For my tastes, I still preferred the Melco connected to the ER and Nds directly connected to the Melco player port. But the Nds connected to the ER was very close.
as you I have limited technical knowledge, so can’t explain why. I feel it’s not only a matter of switch, but the direct connection.
i wanted to try with the new Innuos switch, if I prefer direct to Melco or both Melco and Nds to Innuos. But unfortunately it doesn’t work.
i opened a ticket with Innuos support.
 

Exlibris

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Well there’s a can-o-beans you just opened!
At least one positive from all this lock-down and pandemic is that my system has taken some further steps forward. The thing is, anything good that you do by way of upgrade anywhere in your network, be it a new cable, vibration control, better power supplies or whatever brings a reward, and the better your system gets, the bigger the reward becomes. No laws of diminishing returns , certainly not at the level I‘ve been working at. The other observation I would make is that in data processing, the role of the network is to move data. In audio, the role of the network should be two-fold, to move data AND to refine the signal.....regenerating finer and finer versions along the way. We know several things based on the improvements I mentioned above. We know that every stage of the network has the ability to improve the signal, proven by the fact that SQ improves, often markedly. It also proves that the improvement at one stage is passed on throughout the network which therefore must be based on ‘better signal in, better signal out’, which means that any improvement you’d hear is made on top of the improved input, which means that each and every stage has the ability to improve the signal and strongly contribute to the resulting sound quality.
Following the above, you’ll realise that a network should ideally be arranged in ever improving steps. That way its all gains with no or minimised limiting steps. So what have I done?
My system is Modem —>3 Band Router—Wi-Fi—> Ethernet Bridge—>AQVox SE—>Statement server. As you also know I had the AQVox connected to a Sean Jacob’s DC3. Adding that power supply brought such a huge uptick in performance that I added DC3s to the rest of the network. With the very generous advice and help of Nenon I then discovered the virtues and benefits of Mundorf Silver/Gold DC cables. I know some may be sceptical that a DC cable matters, but the improvement these JSSG360-format cables brought is way beyond ‘matters’; its really quite fundamental and massively improves the 3 dimensionality and unlimited spacial abilities, where the system can project an ‘any size the recording contains” acoustic venue with all the spacial ambient listening clues in place and 3 dimensional instruments playing music. With many good recordings the music is completely immersive. I was extremely happy with the way the system was sounding....it had SOTA PR&T, and generated incredible listener involvement. So naturally I wondered what even better power supplies throughout the network could achieve. A couple of calls to Sean Jacobs who‘s based in one of the Yorkshire Dales about 100 or so miles away and an upgrade path for all 3 DC3s was defined. A new, somewhat beefier ‘Statement-class’ transformer was fitted, regulation was upgraded to DC4 units, the case was lined with DC4 damping materials, iec sockets upgraded, 3 DC4 footers fitted and the units rewired with Mundorf Silver/Gold cable.
Installed and fired up, by hour 2 it started to make beautiful music with a wonderful energy and vibrancy. The system took about 3 months to reach a completely stable level of performance and I have to say, it was pure magic.....hugely spacial, 3 dimensional, pure, accurate, incredibly transparent with massive PR&T, with a soundstage as big as whatever was on the recording....sometimes small, sometimes huge, sometimes infinite.
So that’s where my system was when I added a well run in PhoenixNET. I always thought I’d like the chance to review a piece of kit, so I was pretty happy to receive this pre-production unit. I used the standard power cord and patch cord to connect from the PhoenixNET to the Statement. Remember what I said before about a network ideally being based on a series of improvements. Well that patch-cord wasn’t.....an improvement. It was exactly the opposite and proved very, very limiting. Into my attic to fetch the only extra ethernet cable I possess, a piece made and supplied by AQVox. It sounded like it sounded when it was last in my system but at least it allowed me to let the PhoenixNET do its thing, which is what I reported.
I now have my own PhoenixNET hooked up with Synergistic Research power and ethernet cables.
Several other network upgrades include the addition of a Melco S100 with Pink Faun Ultra OCXO and a dual rail DC4 with Mundorf silver/gold for all DC wiring to switch and clock. I also got hold of another Finite Elemente Pagoda Master Reference rack and some Cerabase footers for the 3 power supplies and 2 switches. So now the whole lot is again running in. Already sounds amazing but its still about 2 months for all the Mundorf content and cabling to properly condition.
I've been following this thread because I'm relatively new to streaming and I'm in the market for one of these devices. I'm trying to decide between the ER, PhoenixNET, and PF S100.
 

Frenchrooster

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That's my feeling so far (mine arrived today).
There’s a bit more authority and bass, but maybe a bit more in your face vs the ER/ linear ps.
but unfortunately I feel it has a default and I will have to send it back ( impossibilty to use the app).
i will however wait until a few days more to see how better it is. If the difference is enough big I will ask for a replacement.
 
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Griff500

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There’s a bit more authority and bass, but maybe a bit more in your face vs the ER/ linear ps.
but unfortunately I feel it has a default and I will have to send it back ( impossibilty to use the app).
i will however wait until a few days more to see how better it is. If the difference is enough big I will ask for a replacement.
It's a shame you are having that issue. I plugged my TV and streamer into it and everything just worked straight away. You wouldn't expect the switch to stop connected devices accessing the network. Hopefully you get it sorted out.
 

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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It's a shame you are having that issue. I plugged my TV and streamer into it and everything just worked straight away. You wouldn't expect the switch to stop connected devices accessing the network. Hopefully you get it sorted out.
It’s not sorted out because I can use only the remote of my streamer and see the albums and files on the little screen. But the app doesn’t work.
 

Blackmorec

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Feb 1, 2019
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It’s not sorted out because I can use only the remote of my streamer and see the albums and files on the little screen. But the app doesn’t work.
I’m not a network guru.....quite the opposite but is does look like you’re having a network configuration issue, so the first thing to check is whether your router is actually seeing the NDS

Is your router using DHCP to automatically assign IP addresses? If so, if you look at the NDS Network Setting menu is DHCP marked <Yes>?

When you log on to your router and look at your network config, what clients do you see?
 

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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I’m not a network guru.....quite the opposite but is does look like you’re having a network configuration issue, so the first thing to check is whether your router is actually seeing the NDS

Is your router using DHCP to automatically assign IP addresses? If so, if you look at the NDS Network Setting menu is DHCP marked <Yes>?

When you log on to your router and look at your network config, what clients do you see?
Hi, thanks for the reply.
i have also the Etheregen and all is working fine. I can connect the Nds and Melco to the ER or Nds to Melco ( player port) and Melco to ER, and all is working fine. The app finds in 1 second my Nds and then the library on my Melco.
i tried both connections with the Innuos and the app can’t find the rooms.
i really think there is a default in the switch.
however, when at home, I will try to see if my Nds, as you suggested, is set to DHCP. But all work flawlessly with the Etheregen...
 

Gunnar

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I took delivery today of my PF S100 with two Farrads . One hour later everything was unpacked, installed and up and running. Smooth. Sorry for you @Frenchrooster . The PF S100 has replaced my ER/Farad which has replaced my EE8. So the PF S100, as Melco recommend, is between my Melco N1Z /1 and the streamer. The ER/Farad is on the other side of the Melco. My first impression is positive but I will wait a week or so before comparing and commenting. The new stuff needs to settle down first.
 

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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I took delivery today of my PF S100 with two Farrads . One hour later everything was unpacked, installed and up and running. Smooth. Sorry for you @Frenchrooster . The PF S100 has replaced my ER/Farad which has replaced my EE8. So the PF S100, as Melco recommend, is between my Melco N1Z /1 and the streamer. The ER/Farad is on the other side of the Melco. My first impression is positive but I will wait a week or so before comparing and commenting. The new stuff needs to settle down first.
I feel we don’t understand each other as to the places and connecting to the switches.
i am active on the Naim forum and there are many Melco and Nd555 users. Be it Dark Bear, Steve, ...they use generally the ER connected to their router. From the ER they connect the Melco and from the Melco they connect the Nd555. Melco recommends the connection to its player port ( direct Ethernet connection). Some use ER in cascade, or with the Cisco. But no one use the Melco after the router, because the router is noisy.
Router> ER> Melco> Nd555/ Nds> Melco second port or Router > ER> Melco and Nd555 > ER.

so in your case, I would do: Router > ER/Farad> S100> Melco and Nd555> S100. Or Nd555 to the second Melco port.

but maybe we are talking about the same thing, but with different words. My english is limited also.
 

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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I’m not a network guru.....quite the opposite but is does look like you’re having a network configuration issue, so the first thing to check is whether your router is actually seeing the NDS

Is your router using DHCP to automatically assign IP addresses? If so, if you look at the NDS Network Setting menu is DHCP marked <Yes>?

When you log on to your router and look at your network config, what clients do you see?
At home now. Just checked : both Melco and Nds are set to DHCP.
i really feel the switch is faulty. The dealer is ready to make an exchange, if we don’t find the resolution of this problem.
 

Gunnar

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@Frenchrooster No misunderstanding at all. I am aware of that in general your Forum members prefer the ER before the Melco music server. I have tried all possibilities (I think). Before the Melco server and after etc. I preferred ER/Farad after and closest to my streamer and the EE8 before the Melco. The EE8 did not add a lot of value.. I don’t think their is just one answer on this question. I guess it’s depending on each ones setup. Just try the different alternatives and decide by yourself.

It will be interesting to get your final comments of the Phoenix.
 

Frenchrooster

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Jan 14, 2012
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@Frenchrooster No misunderstanding at all. I am aware of that in general your Forum members prefer the ER before the Melco music server. I have tried all possibilities (I think). Before the Melco server and after etc. I preferred ER/Farad after and closest to my streamer and the EE8 before the Melco. The EE8 did not add a lot of value.. I don’t think their is just one answer on this question. I guess it’s depending on each ones setup. Just try the different alternatives and decide by yourself.

It will be interesting to get your final comments of the Phoenix.
So the Melco is used as the first switch, just after the router. Curious. But as you said, if you prefer that, it’s the best for you.
 

hh_miller

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Apr 25, 2021
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@Frenchrooster No misunderstanding at all. I am aware of that in general your Forum members prefer the ER before the Melco music server. I have tried all possibilities (I think). Before the Melco server and after etc. I preferred ER/Farad after and closest to my streamer and the EE8 before the Melco. The EE8 did not add a lot of value.. I don’t think their is just one answer on this question. I guess it’s depending on each ones setup. Just try the different alternatives and decide by yourself.

It will be interesting to get your final comments of the Phoenix.

I am using it in the very same setup Router/Fiber/Melco/Super3 as main switch including Roon ROCK ->100Mbit ->ER/Super3/Mutec Ref-10 120 -> 1Gibts/Lumin U1
 
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Frenchrooster

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A little update after 5 days.
i had in the last year the Etheregen bare, then added the Uptone lps 1.2 , a little improvement.
Then tried during 2 weeks the Farad 3 lps, which was a clear improvement. But there was some brightness also, on maybe 1/4 of my library. I finally bought the MCRU pinnacle, which was still better and sounding more natural to my tastes.
The PhoenixNet, at around twice the cost of ER/ MCRU ( and a bit more), is better. After only 5 days, there is more authority, a better bass, more duration in the extension of notes, a bit more clarity and easiness.
it’s not night and day, but easily discernable however.
As i I described above, I can’t connect my Melco server and Nds both in the Phoenix. So I use the same connection as before, Melco into Innuos, Nds into player switch of the Melco server.
I can’t use the app for now, but using the Naim remote is cool too, giving me the feeling to use a cd player.
And I am less tempted to zap on the screen.
The PhoenixNet is a nice piece of kit too, without all the ER lights and apparent cables going from it , and only one box.
i tried to cascade with the ER, but found the sound more coherent with only the PhoenixNet.
 

Gunnar

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@Frenchrooster Strange that you cannot see the Nds. It just one “in” from the router and then “out 1,2 or 3”. So no really possibility to screw it up. Any response from Innuos?

I got my PF S100 with the two Super3s as earlier said last Friday and all works flawless. So far no A to B comparison with my old ER / Super3. This weekend. But no doubt to my ears that this is another level. Difficult to explain what is different. Maybe too easy to say that (for me in my setup) the music sounds more music. Natural is probably the word. OK just a first impression after four days.

I got for trial the Pink Faun lan cable. My first impression when i had it in my hands was ”this is how cables should be built”. Soft easy to handle no stiffness at all. How it sound? Have not compared it yet with my Vertere. But it’s installed. This weekend. Pink Fauns power cords are also supposed to be soft.
 
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