Tonearm Comparison: SME 3012R and SME V-12

[PeterA]

So it looks like I am the only one who picked Video A over B, and A is the 3012R arm that a lot of people like so much and own. So how come those 3012R owners did not pick that combination? This only tells me that the test is just plain invalid - nothing new from this vantage point. I called Video B bad because it so obviously lacking in dynamic headroom, making it sound flatter. Really hate these MP3 tests, using mediocre microphones to capture anything but a small frequency range

EDIT: Dynamic headroom aside, in terms of pure quality of sound, both videos just plain suck, but feel free to disagree and praise MP3

Tasos, the purpose of posting these two videos was not to have some "test" or to form definitive opinions about either one of these two tonearms. I simply wanted to present a comparative pair of videos with only one variable changing (my fault for not matching volume) much like Tang has done when I asked him to post videos of two different cartridges in his system.

The purpose was to share the music, add some context to my system for those who have not heard it, and to see if they would encourage a discussion about the two arms. As I wrote, this thread had been inactive for two years and was started four years ago. I felt the thread needed to be revised given my progress in obtaining a 3012R for my own system and now having the ability to directly compare it to my V-12. A bonus for me would be if we actually learn something in the process of this discussion.

What I do find interesting is that you seem to hear the two videos differently than do some of the other listeners, and as a result, you clearly prefer the video that others do not. This may be a reflection of the different methods we have used to evaluate the videos. Did you ever have a chance to listen again via headphones? Your preference may also be a result of a different reference at home. To my ears, video A more closely resembles what I hear when I listen to your audio system. In other words, your system to me has more of the sonic attributes I hear from video A than I hear from video B.

Also interesting to me is that people have told me that they listen to quite a few of these phone videos of audio systems and actually think these of this choral music (and the solo cello) are actually not bad. No one is saying they are great, by any means, just that they are enjoyable to hear. This general consensus is far removed from your comment that "both videos just plain suck". It is fine to have such an opinion and to share it, but I wonder why you make such a strong statement here and not in all of the other such discussions about phone videos of other systems. Is it something about these two arms that you dislike, or is it something about my recording methods? You opinion really seems at odds with those of others in this thread and with those I have received in private.

I will agree that there is no reason to praise MP3 regarding sound quality. Convenience and accessibility is a different matter.

 

[ack]

This general consensus is far removed from your comment that "both videos just plain suck"

Yes, and that says a lot to me about how people listen: they apparently love bad microphones, MP3 and compression. I shake my head.

To my ears, video A more closely resembles what I hear when I listen to your audio system.

This, to me, is nonsense. You are comparing an in-person experience with a really bad video. I see some serious lapses in judgment here, all around. Your videos do a complete disservice to your own system as well.

I wonder why you make such a strong statement here and not in all of the other such discussions about phone videos of other systems

In your case, you specifically asked for feedback here, and I know you, I don't know others.

 

[Lagonda]

Ah, OK. I didn't read closely, and thought one arm had the standard Master Sig and the other the Grand Cru. But, in that case, then I prefer Grand Cru on the V12 over the 3012R for sure. Unless, of course, the 3012R was just in need of adjustment. The good news is that I now have a feel for what the Grand Cru can sound like under the right conditions for when I'm able to mount mine!

And let’s not forget that Peters TT was developed together with the newer SME arms and probably have great synergy with these.The 3012 R might just be a better allround arm for many different TT’s, i am just speculating, as i have only heard the V 12 arm on a SME TT.

 

[PeterA]

And let’s not forget that Peters TT was developed together with the newer SME arms and probably have great synergy with these.The 3012 R might just be a better allround arm for many different TT’s, i am just speculating, as i have only heard the V 12 arm on a SME TT.

There may be some merit to that, but there is also the variable of my custom armpod which may affect the performance of the 3012R. Frankly, I am very pleased with how the 3012R sounds in my system. I may not have it set up optimally, but I really enjoy how it sounds.

In that sense, perhaps video A does not do justice to the sound of my system as Ack suggests. Listening live, I hear differences, but I do not prefer the V-12 over the 3012R. In some ways I prefer the 3012R. I think it was Tim who suggested that the V-12 may be a bit damped. I hear this too listening live, and many have suggested that the SME tables are quite damped because of the suspension but also the Isodamp like material on most surfaces.

I will switch the cartridge back to the 3012R at some point soon and make some more recordings to share.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The purpose was to share the music, add some context to my system for those who have not heard it, and to see if they would encourage a discussion about the two arms. (...)

IMHO the more relevant aspect of the thread was that people expressed opinions blind. In such conditions, thinks become more funny , although IMHO we did not learn anything about the tonearms or systems.

 

[bazelio]

I don't know what (if anything) we were trying to learn from Youtube videos. I think some of you guys ought to relax and just have some harmless fun here. Hell, I thought I was listening to different versions of the Master Sig initially. So what? Though one thing I learned is that, as best I can tell, Peter has got a very good thing going in his listening room.

Peter, I had commented on the damping of the B setup initially. But it was just an inkling. Thanks for confirming.

 

[Gordon Knott]

I found this discussion in the course of research into the 3012r, and I am grateful for the trouble that PeterA took with his demonstration. I grant that these videos are a pale shadow of direct audition, and there are manifold variables and degradations, but direct audition opportunities are severely limited in this season of Covid. I am curious about this tonearm, and have no reputation or investment yet at stake, yet I am a little surprised by the vehemence in some of the replies. For me, almost any demonstration of equipment, other than careful and extended experiments in my own rig, will be compromised somehow. This doesn't make such demonstrations irrelevant; we compare all of the lies to approach the truth.
I agree that the recordings on YouTube's site sound different to those embedded in the forum.

 

[PeterA]

Here are two more videos for comparison:

 

[bonzo75]

Since we are posting in two threads I will copy over my response here. Or just put a link to the video in the other thread.

the first video is so much superior to the second. In your previous compare videos, I was one of the rare ones who had preferred the 3012r marginally, but those were different carts? Here the SME V is superior by quite a margin. The dynamic swings, low to high flow, is so much better. The 3012r sounds flat and boring in comparison. I heard twice, second time in reverse order. First time I increased the volume on the second video, second time I lowered the volume on the first video. First was quite superior. Much more drama, steady flow, musical message.

Btw, I have been excited by both with the vdh in different rooms though. Leif's friend had the SME V with master signature on the basic Avid model, it was so much better than his other tables that included a Garrard, Bergmann Galder with three arms and carts. He mentioned that whichever table he puts the SME V and vdh on sounds better.

 

[ddk]

Here are two more videos for comparison:

You hear the 3012-R’s superior bass and scale straight away and you can’t even compare the violin’s intonation, 3012-R has so much more going it’s ridiculous and easily heard in these videos.

david

 

[bonzo75]

You hear the 3012-R’s superior bass and scale straight away and you can’t even compare the violin’s intonation, 3012-R has so much more going it’s ridiculous and easily heard in these videos.

david

The initial violin I agree with but bass and scale no. I posted to Peter on the other thread he should have done a longer video of the 3012r

 

[ddk]

The initial violin I agree with but bass and scale no. I posted to Peter on the other thread he should have done a longer video of the 3012r

I hear the bass very easily on my computer system, don't know where the other thread is.

david

 

[bonzo75]

On his sublime sound thread, he is posting in two places.

 

[PeterA]

On his sublime sound thread, he is posting in two places.

Yes. Here it is as a tonearm comparison. In my system thread, the videos are to be heard in the context of the recent discussions about room treatments, the absence of TubeTraps, and sound of a small room with no audiophile treatment, just speaker set up and standard furniture. The room signature is such that differences between the videos is still apparent.

 

[bonzo75]

I like your room layout. I forget, what is the length and breadth?

 

[Direct Drive]

My thoughts are: Top end clearer on Video 1. Bass better No.2. Both sound as if there is a crackling fire (though nothing apears in the fireplace) which more pronounced on Vid. 1.

 

[PeterA]

I like your room layout. I forget, what is the length and breadth?

The room is 16 feet wide by 15 feet deep by 7 1/2 feet high. Not ideal.

 

[bonzo75]

The room is 16 feet wide by 15 feet deep by 7 1/2 feet high. Not ideal.

Ok, I thought it was longer. The width is good

 

[adyc]

I much prefer the second video. The bass is more authoritative. The body is much thicker. Violin sounds much better. More importantly, it is more involving and musical. It is a TKO.

 

[PeterA]

I much prefer the second video. The bass is more authoritative. The body is much thicker. Violin sounds much better. More importantly, it is more involving and musical. It is a TKO.

Thank you adyc. I appreciate your opinion and those of others. I find it interesting that people can have such different opinions. Bonzo feels that the first video is much much better.

I suppose that is why there is so much different gear and system configurations out there.