Turntable platter-LP impedance match

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I obviously haven't lived, I've never heard of "lp slip". Stylus drag, speed variation, wow and flutter, all yes. But lp slip, no.

Ack, you'd HATE my tt. LPs sit 1/2" above the platter on Delrin cones, no centre clamp, weight, periphery ring, vacuum hold down. Just fresh air LOL.

Nothing except the lp on the most minimal contact/support possible.

And vinyl STILL manages to be magical.
 

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Having followed this forum I have tried on 3 of my 4 turntables

2 I have found original platter best, and the third I am still working on, but is much as David said on the bare metal platter very neutral but the Mat seems to rounded out the musicality subtle but I need to do more testing

The fourth the after market mat was clearly superior to what they had on the turntable but guess I should re test it if I can find it lol
 

ack

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After building turntables for over a decade, I remain convinced that LP/platter interface is the single most important aspect of turntable design.

Further, I believe that if the end user can improve the design by changing that interface, it says a lot more about the orignal designer of the piece than it does the end user, or the resulting performance.

Summary: A good design stands on its own merit.

I tend to agree with you regarding single-most important aspect, and I may eventually, after I tighten the speed variability issue (my next project), which my VPI SDS does not entirely solve.
 

ack

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Ack, you'd HATE my tt. LPs sit 1/2" above the platter on Delrin cones, no centre clamp, weight, periphery ring, vacuum hold down. Just fresh air LOL.

I know you mean it in jest, but at the same time, let it be known that I don't argue with preferences, I only argue about bad "technology" and outrageous claims.
 

Tirebiter

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Jan 10, 2018
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I like precise speed control, but consistency is the most important. After all, there are a zillion records that aren't spot-on at 33-1/3 rpm. I am OCD about speed accuracy on my own turntable, however.

I agree on the importance of speed consistency and is the reason I believe switching to inelastic silk thread from a rubber drive belt was an audible improvement. Which is why I also think there are a lot of advocates for rim or direct drives. I have also wondered about speed control/consistency during manufacturing and just how much variation there is on that end...and would venture to wager that there is a lot more there than most people think or admit. We make the assumption that all records are perfect representations of the original recording sessions and then chase our tails thinking that there must be something wrong with our setups when fault lies upstream.
 

ack

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I believe switching to inelastic silk thread from a rubber drive belt was an audible improvement.

A subject for another thread, but I've had little luck with silk threads because they tend to slip on my motor's delrin pulley. And using two or more proved impossible, as I could not make them all the same diameter. Frustrating endeavor.
 

ack

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PeterA

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I agree on the importance of speed consistency and is the reason I believe switching to inelastic silk thread from a rubber drive belt was an audible improvement. Which is why I also think there are a lot of advocates for rim or direct drives. I have also wondered about speed control/consistency during manufacturing and just how much variation there is on that end...and would venture to wager that there is a lot more there than most people think or admit. We make the assumption that all records are perfect representations of the original recording sessions and then chase our tails thinking that there must be something wrong with our setups when fault lies upstream.

This may only be peripherally related to the OP, but regarding rubber belts, doesn't it depend on how stretchy the belt is, and how much is not in contact with the pulley and platter? Just like the platter/vinyl interface, one must find the right composition. Not all belts are created equal. Inelastic silk, though I have not tried it myself, may solve some issues, but I understand there are some conditions more suited for this approach than others. For instance, some degree of slippage may be a design goal depending on the mass of the platter and speed control.

Anyway, my point is that in this area, it is difficult to generalize about a particular class of design or approach to the problem. As with the platter interface, much depends on the mass of the platter, the material of the platter, the type of bearing, perhaps the drive type of table, etc. Tape, silk thread, or rubber belt: I do not think it is so simple.
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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You are correct, but one important aspect to consider is inherent belt creep. Mark Kelly has written extensively on this subject, and the take away is that physics establish creep as a given with belts. As you write, strings (and other tricks) alleviate the problem to a degree. String slip can be anticipated in the deign, but it is a critical consideration, in my opinion. Even idler wheels creep somewhat, but that can be as little as one part per million.

There are so many things to consider that no one to date has made the perfect turntable. New magnet technologies offer some hope, but none has begun to reach that goal, again in my opinion.

Sorry, I have digressed from the original poster's subject.
 

Folsom

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I obviously haven't lived, I've never heard of "lp slip". Stylus drag, speed variation, wow and flutter, all yes. But lp slip, no.

Ack, you'd HATE my tt. LPs sit 1/2" above the platter on Delrin cones, no centre clamp, weight, periphery ring, vacuum hold down. Just fresh air LOL.

Nothing except the lp on the most minimal contact/support possible.

And vinyl STILL manages to be magical.

Ever see a felt mat on a metal platter? The faintest of touch will make the LP move different than the platter. You can hear the difference by just securing all of it.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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You are correct, but one important aspect to consider is inherent belt creep. Mark Kelly has written extensively on this subject, and the take away is that physics establish creep as a given with belts. As you write, strings (and other tricks) alleviate the problem to a degree. String slip can be anticipated in the deign, but it is a critical consideration, in my opinion. Even idler wheels creep somewhat, but that can be as little as one part per million.

There are so many things to consider that no one to date has made the perfect turntable. New magnet technologies offer some hope, but none has begun to reach that goal, again in my opinion.

Sorry, I have digressed from the original poster's subject.

A year or two ago van den Hul had a prototype magnetic drive system which looked promising, I'm sure that the magnetic field is contained but I don't know how it affects cartridges.

Although there are problems and issues Win but we both know that most of it can be dealt with and have exquisite sound from analog LPs without going crazy on tech.

david
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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A year or two ago van den Hul had a prototype magnetic drive system which looked promising, I'm sure that the magnetic field is contained but I don't know how it affects cartridges.

Although there are problems and issues Win but we both know that most of it can be dealt with and have exquisite sound from analog LPs without going crazy on tech.

david

True. You wouldn't believe how many times I have walked past my own turntable only to see something that I could change for the better. That is possibly why I don't come out with a new model several times a year. (I am suspicious those who do.) At this rate, I am beginning to think that a single model can be continuously improved forever. :D

Simplicity, in many ways, is key to the good design of virtually anything made.
 

awsmone

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True. You wouldn't believe how many times I have walked past my own turntable only to see something that I could change for the better. That is possibly why I don't come out with a new model several times a year. (I am suspicious those who do.) At this rate, I am beginning to think that a single model can be continuously improved forever. :D

Simplicity, in many ways, is key to the good design of virtually anything made.

Yes I have the same experience

On the weekend I adjusted three turntables where I noticed issues crept in

For something that has a such a simple job to do, the issues seem endless

To be honest that’s where turntable like the AS 2000 and SME 3012r come in

They work, people have written a lot how to get them to work, and what gimmicks are a waste of time

Saves a lot of grief

PS not to ignore your turntable Mosin but I personally have no knowledge of it :)
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Yes I have the same experience

On the weekend I adjusted three turntables where I noticed issues crept in

For something that has a such a simple job to do, the issues seem endless

To be honest that’s where turntable like the AS 2000 and SME 3012r come in

They work, people have written a lot how to get them to work, and what gimmicks are a waste of time

Saves a lot of grief

PS not to ignore your turntable Mosin but I personally have no knowledge of it :)

IMO Win has kept too low a profile, you know that the Saskia is a beautifully designed and executed turntable just by looking at it.

david
 

Tango

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Mar 12, 2017
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True. You wouldn't believe how many times I have walked past my own turntable only to see something that I could change for the better. That is possibly why I don't come out with a new model several times a year. (I am suspicious those who do.) At this rate, I am beginning to think that a single model can be continuously improved forever. :D

Simplicity, in many ways, is key to the good design of virtually anything made.

You certainly share the same school of thought as ddk on simplicity..and he keeps walking around his baby like you too.
There are things that only AS owners would know David sent or will replace for free because he finally found way to improve with little or no compromises. I hear the effect of having the leather mat on or off the AS..the pros and cons. David obvisouly know full well and more about it. I can say that he has been on to something. Hopefully I could get to try ina few months.

Btw I am one of the admirer of your tt. It was unfortunate that you were difficult to reach. Frankly it could have been your tt instead of the927.

Kindest regards,
Tang
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
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IMO Win has kept too low a profile, you know that the Saskia is a beautifully designed and executed turntable just by looking at it.

david

I must agree with David and Tango

I have heard rumours of the quality of your turntable
But have no real idea about it or construction or philosophy

Perhaps a thread on the Saskia would be of benefit ? And any links or videos

Is there anyone on WBF who owns the turntable or heard it?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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I must agree with David and Tango

I have heard rumours of the quality of your turntable
But have no real idea about it or construction or philosophy

Perhaps a thread on the Saskia would be of benefit ? And any links or videos

Is there anyone on WBF who owns the turntable or heard it?

heard it 2 or 3 times at shows (been at least 5+ years back now)....and grabbed me each time.

one of the very, very, best tt's I have heard.....easily the best idler. super quiet and otherworldly sense of flow, authority and ease. and a work of art in every sense. a masterpiece.
 
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