turntables; high level anti-resonance----active (Herzan) platforms, Minus K, air bladder (Stacore) platforms, or others?

[Mike Lavigne]

moving this subject matter from Peter A.'s system thread 'Sublime Sound'..................
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-56#post-645390
..................to a more appropriate place so as not to get that thread too far off topic.

Well, I would say that it is a consensus of a very few ... I can't see any technical reason why passive solutions have advantages in belt driven turntables. IMHO each turntable will be a different case, unless we try it we are just guessing.

i agree that every passive solution is a matter of context. and that the floor and rack will be as significant in choice of anti-resonance treatment as the tt.

Mike,
I can easily see why these particular turntables are not adequate to active tables. But for example, I expect active tables to to sound good with the SME30.

why would my Saskia not be a good choice for active? it's not for sure! and the SME 30 OTOH a good choice? why do you say that?
i can think of possible reasons, just wondered what yours are?

Yes I haven't seen any consensus on this either. Also very difficult to get any finding apart from theoretical discussion given not everyone has a Minus K, Herzan, and a few different passives with them at the same time with various TTs.

very few go down this road. lots of work and big commitment.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I would have killed to have done my Stacore passive v Kuraka active v Minus K passive comparison on my tt. However it was done on my cdp, and the results were clear as day. Whether my tt w greater mass and torque of spinning platter compared to my cdp w spinning cd would have fared even worse on the Minus K and Kuraka, I'll never know. It strikes me that it's v unlikely the results would have been reversed.

Caveat...I have a pretty challenging flexy 30x48 timber/joists 160 yr old Victorian floor to contend with.

 

[microstrip]

(...) why would my Saskia not be a good choice for active? it's not for sure! and the SME 30 OTOH a good choice? why do you say that?
i can think of possible reasons, just wondered what yours are? (...)

Idlers usually have powerful motors that must drain a lot of energy through the plinth - designers tune the plinth to help sinking this energy away from the platter in a controlled way, the active table is an unexpected obstacle. I also think an active table uses the top plate as a reference - putting a disturbance on it is not welcome!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Idlers usually have powerful motors that must drain a lot of energy through the plinth - designers tune the plinth to help sinking this energy away from the platter in a controlled way, the active table is an unexpected obstacle. I also think an active table uses the top plate as a reference - putting a disturbance on it is not welcome!

while i do agree that the SME 30 would have a lower level noise issue than the Saskia with active, i am very skeptical that it would be noise free to the degree that the NVS direct drive is......or even low enough to make active a long term choice for the SME 30.

obviously i'm just guessing about it. but the heavy platter of the SME 30 will throw off considerable resonance into the plinth......even if the motor is sufficiently isolated. and the rubber band suspension might also introduce resonance (while reducing some other resonance) that the active would pick up. maybe the SME 30 could be 'tuned' in some way to work?

one significant type of resonance attenuated by active is 'ground noise'......pretty low level stuff.

 

[CKKeung]

A HK friend of mine just bought a Minus-K platform for his Micro Seiki 8000.
It's the new ultra thin CT2 model.



https://www.minusk.com/products/ct2-ultra-thin-low-height-vibration-isolation-platform.html

He ordered a top-plate big enough for the motor module & the main body and a DS Audio ION tower :

 

[spiritofmusic]

Their prices seem to have really spiked. Almost 100%.

 

[sombunya]

I see very expensive systems and the turntable is only a few feet from the speakers.

I digitize my albums into lossless wav files. Once I was doing this while wearing headphones and during a quiet passage I could hear my wife's voice through my headphones as she was talking on the telephone. I now keep the volume very low while doing this.

My father was a foreman at the phone company and was also an amateur radio operator. In the early 1960's he had an integrated amplifier and speakers in the living room. The TT was in a hall closet. Back then this meant nothing to me but now I'm quite sure he was onto something.

 

[TLi]

I like to keep hifi equipment to the side leaving the space between speakers open. The imaging is better with this placement but it means the turntable is directly behind a speaker. Vibration isolation is vital in this situation for good vinyl sound.

I have been using Herzan TS-150 active isolation platform for TechDAS Air Force One Premium for a few years and is very pleased with the sound. Recently I upgraded to Herzan AVI system with LFS, low frequency sensor. It comes with a custom-made steel table made by Herz in Japan and consists of four AVI modules from Swiss. The scientific officer in my local dealer said the AVI system with LFS is the best isolation technology currently available, and it meets the most stringent laboratory requirement for vibration isolation. The performance is much better than Herzan TS-150.

My question at the time was is it a overkill for hifi system? The scientific officer said he doesn't know as no one has tried before.

The isolation table was delivered last month. The low frequency sensor (LFS) is an add-on module which basically is a very large accelerometer (vibration sensor) specifically designed for low frequency down to 0.5Hz. It enhances low frequency correction ability of the AVI system. Low frequency vibration is particularly difficult to correct and is most ineffective in passive system. The LFS comes with a separate power supply and control module which user can turn on and off to compare the difference. In my system, the difference is very obvious with and without LFS. The articulation, dynamics and bass punch are noticeably better with LFS on. The whole package is much better with previous TS-150, so it is not a overkill for hifi.

 

[marty]

Of course. I've written several times previously that I'm surprised these industrial anti-vibration platforms do not enjoy more widespread attention by audiophiles. What's even more puzzling is that there are many of these outstanding isolation systems from Newport, TMC, Herzan, Kinetic Systems and others readily available as used gear from scientific surplus vendors for pennies on the dollar. I just shake my head when I see overpriced audiophile stands and racks being used in place of genuine professional gear such as this, especially when their pricing is extravagant by comparison.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for posting this report. Very interesting!

This is definitely a data point contrary to the view that active isolation does not work under turntables with suspensions.

While more dynamic and punchy, is there any sense in which the active isolation makes the sound less liquid or less harmonically rich or resonant?

 

[howiebrou]

I like to keep hifi equipment to the side leaving the space between the speakers open. The imaging is better with this placement but it means the turntable is directly between a speaker. Vibration isolation is vital in this situation for good vinyl sound.
View attachment 73003
I have been using Herzan TS-150 active isolation platform for TechDAS Air Force One Premium for a few years and is very pleased with the sound. Recently I upgraded to Herzan AVI system with LFS, low frequency sensor. It comes with a custom-made steel table made by Herz in Japan and consists of four AVI modules from Swiss. The scientific officer in my local dealer said the AVI system with LFS is the best isolation technology currently available, and it meets the most stringent laboratory requirement for vibration isolation. The result is much better than Herzan TS-150.
View attachment 73004
My question at the time was is it a overkill for hifi system? The scientific officer said he don't know as no one has tired before.

The isolation table was delivered last month. The low frequency sensor (LFS) is an add-on module which basically is a very large accelerometer (vibration sensor) specially designed for low frequency down to 0.5hz. It enhanced the low frequency correction ability for the AVI system. Low frequency vibration is particularly different to correct and is most ineffective in passive system. The LFS comes with a separate power supply and control module which user can turn on and off to compare the difference. In my system, the difference is very obvious with and without LFS. The articulation, dynamics and bass punch are noticeably better with LFS on. The whole package is much better with previous TS-150, so it is not a overkill for hifi. View attachment 73005

Wow. I’m going to check out our labs and see what they’re using to isolate their microscopes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is definitely a data point contrary to the view that active isolation does not work under turntables with suspensions.

active works on gear without self noise. it can do fine with lots of different passive suspensions as long as those systems don't trigger the sensors. but it has to be properly installed and engineered. and if it has a SMPS then that might detract from the net benefit.

for instance; my Saskia has a suspension; but the reason it's won't work on the active is the resonance noise from the motor comes through that suspension and triggers a loop of noise attenuation. that noise is designed to be removed through the suspension and not onto the platter. so nothing wrong with the Saskia, just not an active friendly design. my CS Port won't work with active since it has a separate motor pod that resonates. as do most of the Micro Seiki type string drives.

it's other passive isolation systems that have issues with turntables with suspensions since both are soft and settle. two passive systems not synergized have much more unpredictable results than adding active to a passive system. for instance an air bladder platform under a suspended turntable is going to be a problem.

the AVI system above is essentially the same product that Christian used with the AS-2000. the main difference is the separate motor pod of the AS-2000 was a significant source of self noise that created a loop of feedback and caused a net detraction of performance. the more 'one piece' chassis approach of the AFP is more active friendly. but maybe not perfectly active friendly. hard to know exactly. clearly TLi is happy......so there you go.

 

[PeterA]

the AVI system above is essentially the same product that Christian used with the AS-2000. the main difference is the separate motor pod of the AS-2000 was a significant source of self noise that created a loop of feedback and caused a net detraction of performance. the more 'one piece' chassis approach of the AFP is more active friendly. but maybe not perfectly active friendly. hard to know exactly. clearly TLi is happy......so there you go.

Mike, here is what Christian wrote about the AVI system with his AS-2000:

For lack of a better expression...it over-damps the sound. The music is deader, less open and airy. I can't comment yet on those specifics with the bass...sadly it appears active AVI units are not a good match for this turntable. I experienced the same thing previously with my Clearaudio Master Innovation but was in denial. Perhaps some un-damped resonance is good.

I found something similar with my passive pneumatic platform under my SME 30/12. The sound was overdamped. Backgrounds were blacker, bass was "tighter", more focused and more prominent in the mix. Images were more outlined, all the great "hifi" stuff, but the sound was less natural, less like real instruments. I decided to remove the isolation and ground the table to a steel plate. I understand why the two different sounds can appeal to different listeners.

 

[Tango]

Mike, here is what Christian wrote about the AVI system with his AS-2000:



I found something similar with my passive pneumatic platform under my SME 30/12. The sound was overdamped. Backgrounds were blacker, bass was "tighter", more focused and more prominent in the mix. Images were more outlined, all the great "hifi" stuff, but the sound was less natural, less like real instruments. I decided to remove the isolation and ground the table to a steel plate. I understand why the two different sounds can appeal to different listeners.

What you wrote are same effects with Stacore. Increase air pressure and sound will be more articulate. This is under my phono. I actually have it fully deflated at the moment. Tbh not a make or break either way for me. Audiophiles are mostly extremist so there is always like and not like. I could go either way but best save the money and pour on the essential. But this is a hobby of the rich so money must be spent on something every six month or so.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, here is what Christian wrote about the AVI system with his AS-2000:

I found something similar with my passive pneumatic platform under my SME 30/12. The sound was overdamped. Backgrounds were blacker, bass was "tighter", more focused and more prominent in the mix. Images were more outlined, all the great "hifi" stuff, but the sound was less natural, less like real instruments. I decided to remove the isolation and ground the table to a steel plate. I understand why the two different sounds can appeal to different listeners.

Christian's AS-2000/AVI experience is not a valid data point for me since the self noise of the AS-2000 made it incompatible to begin with. which going in was not on our radar. we learned about that issue from that. not the result we expected.

and unless we investigated the Clearaudio Master Innovation to confirm zero self noise then the same situation. it's multiple platter, belt driven so likely plenty of self noise. active is not designed to help in those spots. i'm sure it caused a change, but unlikely a positive one.

to see if gear is a candidate for active requires placing the gear on the active unit (which should be sitting on a solid rack or solid floor) and turning on the gear and the decoupling sensors and actuators. if the screen shows zero noise then it's a candidate. next listen and see if you like it.

but if it has self noise, it's not a candidate.

next check out the SMPS and see if that is a negative, and maybe consider some mods to augment the resonance attenuation to full frequency (like the Tana).

if you judge active without first going through those steps then any result is possible. you have no idea whether you have the right tool for the job. properly applied active will reduce resonance and smearing of the musical signal, but not every piece of gear or system is improved by those things. some are taken to a new level with it..

 

[CKKeung]

I like to keep hifi equipment to the side leaving the space between the speakers open. The imaging is better with this placement but it means the turntable is directly between a speaker. Vibration isolation is vital in this situation for good vinyl sound.
View attachment 73003
I have been using Herzan TS-150 active isolation platform for TechDAS Air Force One Premium for a few years and is very pleased with the sound. Recently I upgraded to Herzan AVI system with LFS, low frequency sensor. It comes with a custom-made steel table made by Herz in Japan and consists of four AVI modules from Swiss. The scientific officer in my local dealer said the AVI system with LFS is the best isolation technology currently available, and it meets the most stringent laboratory requirement for vibration isolation. The result is much better than Herzan TS-150.
View attachment 73004
My question at the time was is it a overkill for hifi system? The scientific officer said he don't know as no one has tired before.

The isolation table was delivered last month. The low frequency sensor (LFS) is an add-on module which basically is a very large accelerometer (vibration sensor) specially designed for low frequency down to 0.5hz. It enhanced the low frequency correction ability for the AVI system. Low frequency vibration is particularly different to correct and is most ineffective in passive system. The LFS comes with a separate power supply and control module which user can turn on and off to compare the difference. In my system, the difference is very obvious with and without LFS. The articulation, dynamics and bass punch are noticeably better with LFS on. The whole package is much better with previous TS-150, so it is not a overkill for hifi. View attachment 73005

Let me spill the beans and reveal the secret of my good friend TLi to WBF brothers :
The AVI active anti-vibration table is for TLi's soon-to-arrive Air Force Zero turntable!

 

[dcc]

My limited experience is with a custom made rack and platforms from Stacore which are passive isolation devices. To me, there is clearly an improvement with the turntable and particularly tube electronics. I am not looking back.

 

[TLi]

Thank you for posting this report. Very interesting!

This is definitely a data point contrary to the view that active isolation does not work under turntables with suspensions.

While more dynamic and punchy, is there any sense in which the active isolation makes the sound less liquid or less harmonically rich or resonant?

This is an very interesting issue, active isolation on turntable.

Our turntable expert, David Karmeli, has been to my place and we had some discussion on this matter. I visited TechDAS designer, Hideaki Nishikawa, listening room, we talked about it in some details. Their opinions were similar and can be summed up as: "It kills the music". They said turntable is rotating machine which creates a lot of vibrations from unbalanced platter, spindle bearing and drive motor. Active isolation platform will continuously fight to cancel this vibration and it will not succeed since it is intrinsic. This causes disturbing oscillation which is detrimental to the sound. In this regard, turntable with rigid mounting is more susceptible to oscillation, as no platter is completely dynamic balanced and there is no suspension to buffer the vibration.

On the other hand, my theory is simple. Music excites everything in the listening room, in particular the floor and rack. This music related vibration will transmit back to the platter surface causing a feedback loop. The result is softer bass and smeared imaging. One side effect is more mellow and resonant sound. Harmonic is the spirit of music but we want harmonic from musical instrument, not from turntable. Good isolation platform will cut this feedback loop giving a cleaner presentation. If the sound is too sterile and plain with active isolation, the problem originates from other equipment, not the turntable. A turntable with feedback just helps to attenuate the problem. With the current Herzan AVI with LFS, I can hear more into the original music, more inner texture and in the end higher resolution.

 

[ddk]

Christian's AS-2000/AVI experience is not a valid data point for me since the self noise of the AS-2000 made it incompatible to begin with. which going in was not on our radar. we learned about that issue from that. not the result we expected.

That's actually untrue Mike. Going in I knew very well that the Herzan is a bad idea for any turntable, I explained discussed the reasons why in several threads here, long before the AS2000. Christian already had a negative data point with his AF1 and a Herzan, exactly the same outcome as with AS2000. Another invalid data point?

What the heck is "self noise" anyway? You haven't even seen an AS2000; how did you come up with this evaluation?

david

 

[ddk]

This is an very interesting issue, active isolation on turntable.

Our turntable expert, David Karmeli, has been to my place and we had some discussion on this matter. I visited TechDAS designer, Hideaki Nishikawa, listening room, we talked about it in some details. Their opinions were similar and can be summed up as: "It kills the music". They said turntable is rotating machine which creates a lot of vibrations from unbalanced platter, spindle bearing and driving motor. Active isolation platform will continuously fight to cancel this vibration and it will not succeed since it is intrinsic. This causes disturbing oscillation which is detrimental to the sound. In this regard, turntable with rigid mounting is more susceptible to oscillation, as no platter is completely dynamic balanced.

On the other hand, my theory is simple. Music excites everything in the listening room, in particular the floor and rack. This music related vibration will transmit back to the platter surface causing a feedback loop. The result is softer bass and smeared imaging. One side effect is more mellow and resonant sound. Harmonic is the spirit of music but we want harmonic from musical instrument, not from turntable. Good isolation platform will cut this feedback loop giving a cleaner presentation. If the sound is too sterile and plain with active isolation, the problem originates from other equipment, not the turntable. A turntable with feedback just helps to attenuate the problem. With the current Herzan AVI with LFS, I can hear more into the original music, more inner textile and in the end higher resolution.

Dear TLi,
Congratulations on your wonderful purchase, hopefully we'll have another occasion to meet up again and hopefully have you over at my place at some point so I can reciprocate your hospitality.

The AF0 must be the most self isolated turntable ever made you don't need to worry about any feedback coming from that wonderful turntable.

david