Volume and Scale: Educate Me...

[MadFloyd]

Recently I've been listening to an all solid state chain. Compared to my all tube chain, the soundstage is much smaller - at least at low volumes. When I turn up the volume to around 90db, the scale gets pretty realistic, but perhaps slightly small (obviously it will fluctuate based on recording).

Do any of you care about proper scale and if so, do you achieve it only with volume? I'm guessing this wouldn't apply to folks with the larger speakers, but I could be wrong.

 

[caesar]

Recently I've been listening to an all solid state chain. Compared to my all tube chain, the soundstage is much smaller - at least at low volumes. When I turn up the volume to around 90db, the scale gets pretty realistic, but perhaps slightly small (obviously it will fluctuate based on recording).

Do any of you care about proper scale and if so, do you achieve it only with volume? I'm guessing this wouldn't apply to folks with the larger speakers, but I could be wrong.

I own both tube and SS amplification. While I agree with your assessment of virtues of tubes, SS definitely grips and controls the speaker better. If you are playing rock, jazz, or blues, that SS grip makes a big difference, IMHO.

Additionally, speaker drivers - with certain amps - that damn synergy thing, again! - need a certain level volume, so the drivers are appropriately driven.

But if you want great sound at low volumes, Get electrostats!

 

[rockitman]

Tubes for source like phono/tape pre's and Class - A SS for the amps is how I roll. My SS Pass XP-25 sounds broken from a musical sense compared to my Allnic H5000 DHT tube phono. Then again, it costs considerably more. I don't think an all out assault on SS phono gain can match that of tube efforts....ime of course.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

What do you mean by "scale?" What I think of as scale would be effected by the recording, the speakers, speaker placement, listening position, the room...but not by amplifier type...well only to the extent that better channel separation, depending on the recording, could create a wider image. But your solid state amp, if it's a good one, should win that contest.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Added harmonic content usually makes something sound louder even if they measure the same SPL. Louder usually also equates to bigger, at least in the middle.

 

[MadFloyd]

What do you mean by "scale?" What I think of as scale would be effected by the recording, the speakers, speaker placement, listening position, the room...but not by amplifier type...well only to the extent that better channel separation, depending on the recording, could create a wider image. But your solid state amp, if it's a good one, should win that contest.

Tim

By scale I mean both size of the soundstage and perceived size of the performers. I like to get a life-size perception. If I feel that the musicians are 2.5 feet high it's just not as involving to me. With my solid state gear I have to listen louder to get the soundstage height than I do with tubes - at least for my speakers. The result is that I'm listening louder than I normally do.

 

[MadFloyd]

Added harmonic content usually makes something sound louder even if they measure the same SPL. Louder usually also equates to bigger, at least in the middle.

Jack, by middle are you referring to frequencies or soundstage?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

By scale I mean both size of the soundstage and perceived size of the performers. I like to get a life-size perception. If I feel that the musicians are 2.5 feet high it's just not as involving to me. With my solid state gear I have to listen louder to get the soundstage height than I do with tubes - at least for my speakers. The result is that I'm listening louder than I normally do.

Interesting and mysterious. Perception is elusive.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Jack, by middle are you referring to frequencies or soundstage?

Both Ian. Larger images but usually more diffuse if we're talking about a change of amplification only all else being constant. To have 'em both big and sharp, dispersion characteristics and the attendant desired room interactions are required. That's been my experience anyway. The thing is, speaker placement for one set of electronics might not be optimal for another set. Generally, speakers lock in to a room in pretty much the same spots but very small adjustments can make the difference between having a diorama vs something more life sized. What a lot of people forget about scale is adjusting listening position too. The quickest way to get things bigger is to sit closer. Closer is equal to louder after all. Unfortunately, for most people the sense of sight overrules the sense of hearing so even if things sound right they don't actually stick to it because the view of the speakers looks weird.

 

[caesar]

Added harmonic content usually makes something sound louder even if they measure the same SPL. Louder usually also equates to bigger, at least in the middle.

Hey Jack,

Maybe we are talking about different realism triggers, but I always find getting the bass foundation right makes the midrange come alive as well. And in many speaker designs, it takes a lot of amplifier juice to get those big woofers going, many than most people realize because they just have not experienced it.

Of course, if you have something like a Soundlab or another stat, it's less of an issue to get all the drivers going, but you need BIG amps to drive them to full potential for both quiet and loud listening.

 

[marty]

fletcher and munson take care of the volume thing...

You raise a very interesting point. I thought Fletcher Munson curves were indigenous to receivers of yesteryear. But I am unaware that today's SOA pre-amps incorporate FM curves anymore. ARC, VTL, Pass, Lamm etc. Does anyone know if their flagships still use FM curves for EQ'ing tone balance as a function of volume?

 

[microstrip]

A classical example of scale is the difference between an old Krell pure class A system playing cold and after a few hours warmup. If Mep is reading he will surely enlighten us on this subject. Some people will not agree, but power cables can have also have a significant effect in scale.

My test for scale is usually the finale of Shostakovitch 5th symphony or the 3rd movement of the 8th - the orchestra must fill the whole hall!

 

[JackD201]

Hey Jack,

Maybe we are talking about different realism triggers, but I always find getting the bass foundation right makes the midrange come alive as well. And in many speaker designs, it takes a lot of amplifier juice to get those big woofers going, many than most people realize because they just have not experienced it.

Of course, if you have something like a Soundlab or another stat, it's less of an issue to get all the drivers going, but you need BIG amps to drive them to full potential for both quiet and loud listening.

Hi caesar,

Yup. Different but certainly related. Deep bass gives us more of hall space (long reverberation times on the recording). The "dreaded" mid bass hump tricks the mind that there's deep bass where there is none but once this is overcooked the illusion comes crashing down. So there just is no substitute for the real thing same thing as added harmonics. At some point even warmth will expose itself as a kind of hash. Deep bass certainly brings the treble to life too! Something I experienced back in the day when setting up active PA systems.

Thinking about image size, I'm inclined to believe that this is related to the way the identifying timbres of each sound event's source is portrayed. Give lots of it in projection and power and it will increase in size. Then at some point the totality becomes enveloping. Finally pushed too far the ears give up and its all two dimensional noise.

I find you need very large speakers or more little ones to get to the enveloping thing without strain and do it at safe sound levels. The most "I was there" experience I've had was with multichannel but we aren't talking about that

 

[mep]

i would not associate scale with solid state drive vs tubes, as the ss amp and tube amp will "handle" the speakers differently, let alone the harmonic spray differences between the two systems. to me, scale is more about where you are sitting at the concert....way up front or way in back...way in back, small scale, way up front, large scale. Headphones...a whole different scale.

fletcher and munson take care of the volume thing, louder volume more highs and lows, etc. this is where a tone control can come in and help out some at low volumes.

I don't know why, but every time I see the words "harmonic spray," it makes me cringe.

 

[mep]

A classical example of scale is the difference between an old Krell pure class A system playing cold and after a few hours warmup. If Mep is reading he will surely enlighten us on this subject. Some people will not agree, but power cables can have also have a significant effect in scale.

My test for scale is usually the finale of Shostakovitch 5th symphony or the 3rd movement of the 8th - the orchestra must fill the whole hall!

Francisco-Happy New Year brother! With regards to the KSA-250, lots of people thought/think it's a pure Class A design. JA from SP said he thought it was only Class A into the first 35 watts, but we all know that means the majority of time you are listening to Class A. I usually try and warm up my system for 2 hours before I sit down to listen by letting my music server play music. I have to admit that I'm surprised how great the KSA-250 sounds after turn on though.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco-Happy New Year brother! With regards to the KSA-250, lots of people thought/think it's a pure Class A design. JA from SP said he thought it was only Class A into the first 35 watts, but we all know that means the majority of time you are listening to Class A. I usually try and warm up my system for 2 hours before I sit down to listen by letting my music server play music. I have to admit that I'm surprised how great the KSA-250 sounds after turn on though.

Mark - what is the idle power of the Krell KSA-250?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

You raise a very interesting point. I thought Fletcher Munson curves were indigenous to receivers of yesteryear. But I am unaware that today's SOA pre-amps incorporate FM curves anymore. ARC, VTL, Pass, Lamm etc. Does anyone know if their flagships still use FM curves for EQ'ing tone balance as a function of volume?

Marty -- On every amp I ever saw that had this feature - and I sould say "integrated/receiver" because I don't think I ever saw one on a dedicated amp - this feature was switchable. Push the button or throw the switch and "loudness" was on. The most sophisticated loudness circuits did what you're saying - they adjusted the eq to the volume. That was arguably better than on/off, but still pretty flawed as I don't know of any loudness circuit that sensed and adjusted to speaker efficiency, so the loudness circuit really had no good idea when to kick in.

I don't think they ever caught on with the high end, then or now. Quite the opposite, as loudness circuits were being used in midfi, high end was eliminating tone controls altogether.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Was it Peter Walker that said for every song, there's a right volume or something like that?

 

[microstrip]

Was it Peter Walker that said for every song, there's a right volume or something like that?

Jack,

Yes. Peter Walker of Quad once said that every recording has a specific volume at which it sounds better and this optimum playback volume is established by the recording engineers. We should remember that PW addressed mainly acoustical and instrumental music.

 

[mep]

Jack,

Yes. Peter Walker of Quad once said that every recording has a specific volume at which it sounds better and this optimum playback volume is established by the recording engineers. We should remember that PW addressed mainly acoustical and instrumental music.

I think this holds true regardless of the genre. I have always felt that way. I hope most of us can agree on that. However, the essence of what Mad Floyd is saying is that to achieve the correct scale, he has to turn up SS gear louder than tube gear. I think before this discussion goes too much further, we need to know the gain of the preamps he is using and what the input sensitivities are for the amplifiers he is using because those differences could account for the differences in scale he is talking about.