WBF: How Much Science Talk Do You Want to See?

[amirm]

This is another WBF poll. This means we are trying to get insight into who our membership is, as to influence the direction of the forum. It is not intended to have a debate for the sake of it although feel free to leave comments, discuss, etc. as you see fit.

This is a difficult poll to conduct as there are many shades of gray. I have taken a shot at creating the buckets with an eye toward the type of information we like to extract. Hopefully it is good enough for everyone to pick one of them comfortably even if not perfectly.

FYI at any time, 80 to 90% of people reading our forum are guests, not members. I hope the guests who see this poll choose to register and have their voices heard. Failing conversion of the majority to members, this data will be informative but not normative in our decision making.

Appreciate you taking the time to vote. Hope to see us cross 100 member votes .

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

All of it!

I take I all points of view before forming a thought process.

There is no poll showing to vote on.

 

[amirm]

All of it!

I take I all points of view before forming a thought process.

There is no poll showing to vote on.

Sorry, I got bamboozled by the forum software. I had crafted each poll in detail, only to be told the software only allows 100 characters for each! So in a hurry I had to cut them all short. Not happy about it but hopefully they still convey the message for people to select one.

 

[NorthStar]

EDIT: I read what others have to contribute, no matter what their passion in life is.
I like it all; science, listening, reading, evaluating, ...different philosophies from all classes.

We're all living on the same planet having all the same aspirations: Happiness, Freedom, Peace, ...for All.

* I did not vote on that one...I found that no one particular category describes my 'state'.

 

[CGabriel]

I don't mind sharing my vote.

I voted:

While I also listen, understanding of audio science is critical to me

If I wasn't involved in the research and development of products I would have voted:

I like participating in discussion of audio science even though I mostly rely on my ears.

I come to this forum because I am also an audiophile and have been since 1974. I enjoy the hobby and enjoy the experience of being transported, in a virtual reality sense, to another realm. When it is all done right it is a transformative experience. It is rare to find a forum with the quality of subscribers and contributors that we find here. The administration is excellent which contributes to an environment where we can engage in conversation about audio issues that can get deeper than just the name calling happens on some other forums.

However, I do not think that this forum should be an extension of the AES nor should it be a forum that is primarily dominated by topics that would only interest engineers and industry technical insiders. Although we have those people here and their contributions are helpful I wouln't want to turn this place into a "techie" .. ABX .. "show me your charts and graphs" haven. There are other sites that cater to that mentality. And if that is the direction that this forum ultimately takes - then I will politely take my leave.

I believe that there needs to be a place where people can come to talk about their systems, their preferences and their music in an informal manner. No one should be required to take their shoes off at the door and submit their qualifications or system response graphs to engage in a conversation. All this done in a civil and respectful manner is appreciated. I think it is enough to understand that we all have different backgrounds and experience that have molded our decision making. No one deserves to be ridiculed for their opinion even if it is outside of the statistical mean. Bring the facts and figures and allow for opinions even if we disagree. But keep it friendly and this forum will continue to be successful.

Remember: It is easy to create a false characterization of people based upon your own biases and projections. Be tolerant of other people.

 

[amirm]

You are seeing more polls Bob because we have these seasons that come when vocal members tell us privately (and in pubic) what the forum should be, instead of what they think it is. We have our own opinions of whether they are right and whether they have proper pulse of the forum. But there is nothing like concrete data to talk about instead of opinions. Hence these polls. We appreciate the members taking them. And it is OK to pass if you don't feel inclined to do so.

 

[amirm]

I believe that there needs to be a place where people can come to talk about their systems, their preferences and their music in an informal manner. No one should be required to take their shoes off at the door and submit their qualifications or system response graphs to engage in a conversation.

Thank you for your comments Caelin and especially this. One of the things we have been accused of recently of the very thing you mention: i.e. "a new direction where everything said requires proof." Nothing could be further from the truth. The forum is dominated by people sharing their subjective opinion of equipment without anyone interrupting the discussion and demanding proof. The demand for proof is only merited, and is occurring when a person attempts to convince someone in the opposing camp that they are wrong. In that case, it is fair to ask for the type of evidence the other side accepts which in the case of audio, is some kind of formal proof.

Should this ever be painful for anyone, they should simply disengage from trying to convert people and instead, share their subjective experiences. I know this is easier said than done . But it is the logical thing to do instead of lashing out at your peers, management, quitting, etc.

All this done in a civil and respectful manner is appreciated. I think it is enough to understand that we all have different backgrounds and experience that have molded our decision making. No one deserves to be ridiculed for their opinion even if it is outside of the statistical mean. Bring the facts and figures and allow for opinions even if we disagree. But keep it friendly and this forum will continue to be successful.

Very well said.

 

[ddk]

I voted listen and science both are important to me but I need to clarify that the science I'm thinking of isn't the graphs and charts you have in the other threads and absolutely nothing to do with Olive's DBT tests which I find completely useless and biased the way they were conducted. I don't even know why Dr. Toole brought the M2 into the conversation because the speaker they used in that test was the 800 array, a wide dispersion horn and HT speaker, a relatively expensive one for that matter.

david

 

[NorthStar]

You are seeing more polls Bob because we have these seasons that come when vocal members tell us privately (and in pubic) what the forum should be, instead of what they think it is. We have our own opinions of whether they are right and whether they have proper pulse of the forum. But there is nothing like concrete data to talk about instead of opinions. Hence these polls. We appreciate the members taking them. And it is OK to pass if you don't feel inclined to do so.

I understand. ...This poll's construction is vague IMO. ...I don't think we can conclude the full extent of what it represents for all of us...members and guests.
Everything is fine...we all have the power to change direction for the best. And there will always be many many directions...just like in real life.

I've been reading a lot here recently, I got lots of free time. A recent big emphasis was on Harman Kardon's science. ...All fine with me...and not all people are like I.
I don't take side...I only try to survive the best I can...in balance with everyone. ...I love challenges; they make you advance in life.
Science is that; the challenge of observing, evaluating, perfecting, contemplating all other possible avenues...theorizing.

...A balance between science and simplicity of enjoying the music playing.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I voted Option 2: I am OK with other people discussing audio science, research, etc.But I ignore it.
However, I don't like the option as I don't ignore it. I read some of it and sometimes a lot.

I do think that the site is becoming more and more about science and research, which I personally don't like.

 

[microstrip]

Can anyone explain me what "While I also listen, understanding of audio science is critical to me" exactly means?

Does this mean that most of our members manage to correlate audio science with the listening?

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I have come to the point in life where I choose not to argue about pretty much anything. Like I have posted before "grown ass men" should not be arguing such trivial things, not enough time in life.

If you feel the need to argue about this stuff might I suggest you go work a soup line, feed the hungry, go help build a home for the homless, get a little perspective on whats important.

The left is not going to change the right, the pro-life is not going to change pro-choice, climate changers are not going to change non-climate changers, Solid staters are not going to change tooberz, analogers are not going to change digitalers subjective is not going to change objective...its not going to happen.

So I just let all y'all duke it out and I sit back and glean the information.

In my opinion no thread needs 50 to 100 pages of posts beating a dead horse, I lose interest at about 20 and then come back when it dies down and skim it over.

I love the way they have been turning to the subject of food as to politely say, its is done rather than violently end it the way some have other places.

This is a great place to hang out and I have gotten more out of this site than pretty much all the others put together.

I have met some of the most fantastic people here in a short time and have been blown away at the number of people that have reached out to me privately.

Simply put this is a phenomenal site with a lot of work being put in on the back side and I appreciate it very much and would hate to see it deteriorate.

Thank you Steve and Amir

 

[ddk]

Can anyone explain me what "While I also listen, understanding of audio science is critical to me" exactly means?

Does this mean that most of our members manage to correlate audio science with the listening?

Good question and probably our definition of what Amir calls science and understanding his poll question will differ.

In my case, it has to do with a preselection of new gear that I might want to listen to, or not. Once convinced, that science or really the engineering knowledge can help me understand why I liked or disliked certain gear in the past to make better selections in the future. There's just too much gear out there and as a consequence the web chatter makes it even more difficult to sort through. Some specs and engineering data will go a long way for me to decide wether I should waste time with the equipment or not. YMMV.

david

 

[amirm]

I do think that the site is becoming more and more about science and research, which I personally don't like.

Can you please explain why you think the site is becoming that way? I took a snapshot yesterday of all the threads that had new posts in them:

Other than the diffusor thread (which I have not read) the rest are all subjective discussion threads. What would that picture need to look like to be more to your liking?

 

[Steve Williams]

I don't mind sharing my vote.

I voted:


If I wasn't involved in the research and development of products I would have voted:


I come to this forum because I am also an audiophile and have been since 1974. I enjoy the hobby and enjoy the experience of being transported, in a virtual reality sense, to another realm. When it is all done right it is a transformative experience. It is rare to find a forum with the quality of subscribers and contributors that we find here. The administration is excellent which contributes to an environment where we can engage in conversation about audio issues that can get deeper than just the name calling happens on some other forums.

However, I do not think that this forum should be an extension of the AES nor should it be a forum that is primarily dominated by topics that would only interest engineers and industry technical insiders. Although we have those people here and their contributions are helpful I wouln't want to turn this place into a "techie" .. ABX .. "show me your charts and graphs" haven. There are other sites that cater to that mentality. And if that is the direction that this forum ultimately takes - then I will politely take my leave.

I believe that there needs to be a place where people can come to talk about their systems, their preferences and their music in an informal manner. No one should be required to take their shoes off at the door and submit their qualifications or system response graphs to engage in a conversation. All this done in a civil and respectful manner is appreciated. I think it is enough to understand that we all have different backgrounds and experience that have molded our decision making. No one deserves to be ridiculed for their opinion even if it is outside of the statistical mean. Bring the facts and figures and allow for opinions even if we disagree. But keep it friendly and this forum will continue to be successful.

Remember: It is easy to create a false characterization of people based upon your own biases and projections. Be tolerant of other people.

Terrific post Caelin and precisely echoes the sentiment of Amir and I as this is the very premise upon which WBF is based.

Recently there have been members here who have left because they felt WBF is taking a direction that is killing "the industry we all so dearly love" (precise quote to me). We have always felt that this should be a forum where every member's opinion is valuable. All we have ever asked is for courtesy to one another. Unfortunately 4 have resigned recently because they felt the direction of the forum is changing in a very unfavorable direction so it is good to hear from you Caelin supporting our very foundation

 

[amirm]

Can anyone explain me what "While I also listen, understanding of audio science is critical to me" exactly means?

Does this mean that most of our members manage to correlate audio science with the listening?

It says what it says. That is, you want to understand what the sciences says in matters being discussed about audio. And you substantially value that information exchange. It doesn't go past that to say what you are saying (i.e. what you do with the information).

 

[amirm]

I have come to the point in life where I choose not to argue about pretty much anything. Like I have posted before "grown ass men" should not be arguing such trivial things, not enough time in life.

If you feel the need to argue about this stuff might I suggest you go work a soup line, feed the hungry, go help build a home for the homless, get a little perspective on whats important.

The left is not going to change the right, the pro-life is not going to change pro-choice, climate changers are not going to change non-climate changers, Solid staters are not going to change tooberz, analogers are not going to change digitalers subjective is not going to change objective...its not going to happen.

So I just let all y'all duke it out and I sit back and glean the information.

In my opinion no thread needs 50 to 100 pages of posts beating a dead horse, I lose interest at about 20 and then come back when it dies down and skim it over.

I love the way they have been turning to the subject of food as to politely say, its is done rather than violently end it the way some have other places.

This is a great place to hang out and I have gotten more out of this site than pretty much all the others put together.

I have met some of the most fantastic people here in a short time and have been blown away at the number of people that have reached out to me privately.

Simply put this is a phenomenal site with a lot of work being put in on the back side and I appreciate it very much and would hate to see it deteriorate.

Thank you Steve and Amir

If everyone thought like you, Steve and I would have more time to listen to music instead of administrating the forum. Thank you for the kind words and support.

 

[Mark Seaton]

I haven't posted in a while but I have made time to follow along as much as practical for the past few months. The posting frenzy after subjective comments or scientific assertions are challenged can be dizzying.

I believe that there needs to be a place where people can come to talk about their systems, their preferences and their music in an informal manner. No one should be required to take their shoes off at the door and submit their qualifications or system response graphs to engage in a conversation.

Thank you for your comments Caelin and especially this. One of the things we have been accused of recently of the very thing you mention: i.e. "a new direction where everything said requires proof." Nothing could be further from the truth. The forum is dominated by people sharing their subjective opinion of equipment without anyone interrupting the discussion and demanding proof. The demand for proof is only merited, and is occurring when a person attempts to convince someone in the opposing camp that they are wrong. In that case, it is fair to ask for the type of evidence the other side accepts which in the case of audio, is some kind of formal proof.

Should this ever be painful for anyone, they should simply disengage from trying to convert people and instead, share their subjective experiences. I know this is easier said than done . But it is the logical thing to do instead of lashing out at your peers, management, quitting, etc.

Unfortunately this boils down to tact, politeness and how confrontational either side is. Allowing such discussion requires active moderation with some tact. The simplest example come when someone expresses what they subjectively heard with some change made to their system. If from some scientifically questionable component change, some love to jump in noting how easily sighted bias comes into play, and often somewhere there is a statement along the lines of "you didn't hear any difference, but you think you did!"

The surest way to cut off productive discussion of subjective impressions and jump to argue/fight mode is to question someone's observations. I've always found much better results by first clarifying what was observed and separate what was heard/observed from the alleged explanation given. Once the observations are separated from the supposed cause, progress can often be made, and suggestions of other experiments can prove very fruitful. If someone doesn't respond to such approach and are already perfectly certain of what they heard and why, state the possibility and that you suggest they approach other possibilities with an open mind, and move on.

There are plenty of posters who are very good at such discussion, while some others... not so much.

All this done in a civil and respectful manner is appreciated. I think it is enough to understand that we all have different backgrounds and experience that have molded our decision making. No one deserves to be ridiculed for their opinion even if it is outside of the statistical mean. Bring the facts and figures and allow for opinions even if we disagree. But keep it friendly and this forum will continue to be successful.

Very well said.

Seconded.

 

[microstrip]

It says what it says. That is, you want to understand what the sciences says in matters being discussed about audio. And you substantially value that information exchange. It doesn't go past that to say what you are saying (i.e. what you do with the information).

Perfect. I will vote for it. Although I would love people debating correlation, even in poetics.

 

[amirm]

I haven't posted in a while but I have made time to follow along as much as practical for the past few months. The posting frenzy after subjective comments or scientific assertions are challenged can be dizzying.

Unfortunately this boils down to tact, politeness and how confrontational either side is. Allowing such discussion requires active moderation with some tact. The simplest example come when someone expresses what they subjectively heard with some change made to their system. If from some scientifically questionable component change, some love to jump in noting how easily sighted bias comes into play, and often somewhere there is a statement along the lines of "you didn't hear any difference, but you think you did!"

Hi Mark. Good to have you back. What you say is definitely true of just about any other forum out there. And was true of ours for the longest time.

But a remarkable thing has happened. People have been able to create countless threads of subjective discussion, and indeed vast majority of topics being discussed, without anyone challenging them for the sake of doing that. On AVS for example, if you breathed a word of any of the top topics in our forum right now, you would be driven out of town. There are people to make sure of that and moderators too busy to remotely want to get engaged until blood is drawn.

Here though, we have managed to separate into two types of threads: those that are subjective and hence, without challenge. And debate threads where both sides challenge each other equally. I am very proud of the objectivists in the forum for the self-restraint they show in letting birds of a feather flock together and have their discussion of subjective matters and products in peace. Yes, there are probably some exceptions but where we are, is something I have not seen elsewhere.

The surest way to cut off productive discussion of subjective impressions and jump to argue/fight mode is to question someone's observations. I've always found much better results by first clarifying what was observed and separate what was heard/observed from the alleged explanation given. Once the observations are separated from the supposed cause, progress can often be made, and suggestions of other experiments can prove very fruitful. If someone doesn't respond to such approach and are already perfectly certain of what they heard and why, state the possibility and that you suggest they approach other possibilities with an open mind, and move on.

There are plenty of posters who are very good at such discussion, while some others... not so much.

I was once trying to talk an industry person into coming to the forum and answer questions. He refused saying he just did not know how to get anything constructive out of it. He said the only person who had managed to do so, i.e. share information and never make enemies, was you! Had to agree with him. It is the type of self-awareness and awareness of forum dynamics that you share above that enables one to accomplish that.