what amplifier should I choose?

Gregadd

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This is a very popular subject. There are currently a few active threads on WBF seeking the answer to this question. Moist seek recommendation of a specific brand/model amp to match to a specific brand/model speaker. Sometimes that question can be answered by finding what amp the designer/manufacturer Used to voice the speaker. While it is not mandatory, two examples are Genesis/Merrill and Von Schweikert/ Vac. It may not be your cup of tea, but at least you can sample what they were shooting for.
I am seeking for you to share the process you followed in making your choice. For instance, did you match speaker to amp or vice versa? Does your speaker require special amplification? Are you a tube or solid-state guy? (we can do without comments lie tubes or solid state suck)? or was it merely serendipity?
Here is a nice video on the subject.
 
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MarkusBarkus

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...I asked Luxman US about pairing bridged m900s with Magico A5s. After some discussion, Japan green-lighted the pairing. I did poke around to check various pairings used at shows. My ears own the final OK, but IMO it is a reasonably good starting point to reference show pairings, and to ask the manufacturers. I recognize this is not a fool-proof approach, but it's a reasonable strategy.
 
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treitz3

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With every system I have ever had, since I was 8 years old, I have always built the system around the speakers. Where that brought me has always been up to the speakers.

I have no use for the knowledge of what the manufacturer used when voicing the speakers. The speakers become the baseline for the new system and I trust my ears to lead me in the right direction for the sound. The manufacturer may have the speaker of my liking but not necessarily the same taste in musical reproduction....and what the end result should sound like.

Tom
 
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Gregadd

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My factors
1.price
.2. power
3. solid state or tubes
4.brand
5.sound
6.relability, availability'
7. ease of use, compatibility with other components
8 . prior experience with brand.
0. versatility
 
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DonH50

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I'll bite, and will probably get bitten, but below are some of the technical considerations off-the-cuff. Sorry for the length! This is all on basic power amplifiers; preamps and integrated amplifiers add features to the mix that also influence their desirability for a given application.

1. Amplifier output impedance. As covered in some of the technical threads, this affects how the amplifier interacts with the speaker. Speaker impedance (ohms) changes over frequency, sometimes widely (or wildly) in the case of many conventional speakers, sometimes fairly smoothly but with a fairly wide range such as ESLs that drop in impedance as frequency increases, and some like Magnepans and other planer-dynamic designs do not vary much at all.

An amplifier's output (driving) impedance also changes over frequency, typically increasing as frequency goes up and devices lose gain and feedback goes down. I have some examples in various threads here and over at the ASR site (the latter articles have been updated a time or two with more modern amplifiers and speakers).

SS amplifiers usually have output impedance much, much (orders of magnitude) lower than tube amplifiers and so tube amplifiers will interact more with the speaker. A SS amp is closer to an ideal voltage source, which IME is the goal for an audio amplifier (yes, that is not always true). If the speaker's impedance does not vary much, this doesn't really matter. If the speaker does vary significantly over frequency, then the frequency response you hear will be affected by the amplifier you choose. Then it becomes preference; you choose an amplifier that works with the speakers to produce the sound you like to hear.

Higher amplifier output impedance can also lead to more distortion from the speaker, but for me the speakers themselves usually dominate the over distortion from the system, so that is minor compared to the frequency response changes.

Edit: Damping factor is 1/output impedance, so a higher damping factor means a lower output impedance. I have read anything over 20 is enough for many speakers; I tend to look for a damping factor of 100+ but again it depends upon the speakers. My Maggies were happy with tubes and a damping factor of <10; my Salon2's are more demanding.

2. Noise floor, or signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). If you have highly-sensitive speakers like horns then you may be more sensitive to noise from the amplifier (and anything up to it, of course). Hiss and hum that are inaudible on some speakers may be intolerable on another. For example, the hiss may be inaudible on an 80 dB/W/m speaker, but move to a 100 dB/W/m speaker and the noise is four times as loud and may be rather annoying.

3. Power, of course, as you need enough power to play cleanly at the volumes you listen. This actually involves SNR as well because SNR is normally specified relative to full power. A 10 W amplifier with 100 dB SNR referenced to max output has a lower noise floor than a 100 W amp with the same 100 dB SNR relative to full power. If you need a lot of power, you may need to look at the SNR as well.

As for the actual power required, IME most folk overestimate their average power and underestimate their peak power needs. This is very dependent upon the speakers, listening distance, and listeners' preferences, of course. But usually a watt or two is all that is needed for average listening, but 100 W or more is needed for dynamic peaks if you want to avoid clipping. (Note clipping on a very loud passage, such as a cymbal crash or explosion, probably does not really matter since the sound is already loud and brash.)

I usually listen around 70 dB or so average level and I have a pair of fairly low-sensitivity speakers at 84 dB/W/m. I sit around 8 feet away and need just 0.1 W from the pair to reach 70 dB at my ears. Only 1 W produces 80 dB, which to me is a loud average level. If my speakers were say 94 dB/W/m, I'd only need one-tenth the power for the same volume.

For peaks, various studies have put dynamic music at around 17 dB peak-to-average level, a power factor of 50. Movies even higher, 20 dB or more, a factor of 100 in power. That means if I crank it up and use 1 W to each speaker to produce 80 dB average at my ears, I need about 100 W if I do not want to clip the peaks.

The other factor at play is how we hear, according to things like the Fletcher-Munson equal-loudness curves. These show that we are less sensitive at very low and very high frequencies. It may take 20 dB (100x power) or more greater level in the deep bass (100 Hz and below) to match the loudness of the sound in the midrange. Now that big 100+ W amp doesn't look so big after all if it is driving full-range speakers. This is also one reason for using subwoofers since you may be able to get more power in their limited bandwidth and also use more of them to both boost the volume and counter room modes.

4. Technology. The old tubes vs. solid-state (SS) trade, or A vs. AB vs. G/H vs. D amplifier classes. For now I'll skip the amplifier class; a good design should sound good and have good specs irrespective of the class of operation.

Tube amps usually have higher output impedance, dissipate more power, and have higher distortion than SS designs. They tend to be single-ended and thus have larger even-order harmonic distortion which I have often read is more benign to listeners. It is interesting that this is by design; intrinsically, there is no reason tubes should have higher distortion, and in fact the actual mathematical distortion series for a single-ended tube is less than that of a bipolar transistor! It is all about design choices and meeting listeners' preferences. SS designs tend to be differential, cancelling even-order distortion and leaving odd terms as dominate, so 2,4,6... HD is suppressed and 3,5,7 dominate. SS amps also tend to have higher feedback, which provides much lower distortion, but also means the higher-order distortion is more "present" as the feedback rolls off. Single-ended designs (tube or SS) tend to be dominated by second and third order distortion, gradually decreasing, while differential SS designs with high feedback tend to have very low low-order harmonics and higher harmonics, whilst still much lower than a single-ended design, may actually be comparable to the lower-order terms. But all usually inaudible, for either design, and again speakers usually dominate the distortion.

I have had and loved both tubes and SS over the years, and still feel some of the best sound from my old Maggies was using an ARC D-79 on top and Counterpoint SA-220 on the bass. But I also know the absolute performance was better using various SS amps. My current speakers (Revel Salon2) are a more demanding load and I am driving them with SS amps. There is also the reliability factor; my ARC I had to repair about once a year, and replace tubes every 3-5 years, while I have SS amps I have not touched in 10-20 years. And there's the heat from the tubes; nice in winter, vexing in summer. Modern tube amps have improved but I have insufficient experience. I will say that my old ARC SP3a1 tube preamp (modified) was very quiet and had as low or lower distortion than most SS preamps of the day (1980's~1990's).

5. Reliability, brand recognition and reputation, and so forth are important too, as are aesthetics. A basic black box is fine in my media room, but a pretty (to me) McIntosh component in the living room would be gorgeous. All else equal, or at least meeting my main requirements for power, low noise, low enough output impedance for the speakers, and reasonably low distortion, then looks, features, and warranty come into play. I put this 5th in line but it is not really 5th in importance, if only because so many good amplifiers can meet the first four criteria. Often enough there are a number of amplifiers that meet the technical requirements so I can decide based upon looks, price, reputation (including warranty), and features. Local availability used to be one of my main criteria, but that is harder now with fewer dealers carrying stock and in my area just fewer dealers period. I have driven 2-3 hours to visit a dealer having a product I want to hear, but more than that is usually not practical. I am fortunate to have a couple of dealers locally with decent stock of what I can afford, but the more esoteric brands I only read about on WBF. :)

This is already way too long and barely scratches the surface. I did not mention many of the technical details, nor did I discuss listening tests that I feel are very important to do in my system (and much harder to do these days than in the past when loaners were routine; it is almost impossible to borrow an amp for a weekend from the local stores). But hopefully it's a start...

HTH - Don
 
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Gregadd

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OK Professor Don, what challenge does this present for an amplifier? Link 621MagA5fig2.jpg 621MagA5fig3.jpg
621MagA5fig1.jpg
 

Gregadd

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621MagA5fig6.jpg 621MagA5fig7.jpg 621MagA5fig8.jpg
 

DonH50

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OK Professor Don, what challenge does this present for an amplifier? Link View attachment 101269 View attachment 101270
View attachment 101267
I assume the bass hump in the frequency response is either by design or an artifact of the measurement system (it is hard to measure bass response in a room unless it is anechoic down that low). Interesting the highs roll off over 10 kHz, probably a design choice. Pretty flat across most of the range aside from the little narrow dip around 4 kHz. I'd guess they sound good, not that my opinion matters!

Moving on to the impedance plot, and bearing in mind speakers are not my area of expertise, this one seems challenging. Impedance below 4 ohms much of the time, and a little below 3 ohms around 100 Hz where there is also a pretty big phase angle that probably drops the effective load to below 2 ohms. Ignoring the low-frequency peak around 45 Hz, there is fairly broad 9-ohm peak around 2 kHz, so you have about 3:1 (9.5 dB) variation in impedance over the frequency band. (Note that does not translate to a 9.5 dB variation in frequency response; much of that is probably from the crossover, so the acoustic output is still flat.) A tube amplifier will likely modify the frequency response, which may or may not be pleasing to you (the listener), and it'd be nice to have one with a 2-ohm tap. Even a SS amp is likely to balk at this one; definitely need one good at driving below 4 ohms. That said, outside the nastiness around 100 Hz and overall low impedance, it does not look horrible to me, just low impedance that makes it hard to drive.

As an aside, a ported speaker will have an impedance dip when the port resonates and the drivers "freeze"; since this has a big peak, I am guessing it is a sealed system?

Looking at your link, I see JA felt the same:

"Using Dayton Audio's DATS V2 system, I found that the impedance magnitude (fig.1, solid trace) did average around 4 ohms, with a minimum value of 2.6 ohms at 93Hz. The electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is occasionally high when the magnitude is low. For example, there is a combination of 3.4 ohms and –50° at 70Hz, a frequency where music can have high levels of energy. The EPDR 1 drops below 2 ohms between 53Hz and 120Hz, with a minimum value of 1 ohm at 70Hz. The A5 must be used with amplifiers that don't have problems driving 2 ohm loads."

He also notes the bass hump is an artifact at the measurement, so I was not totally out of line in my comments.

Them's my guesses, FWIWFM - Don
 
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MarkusBarkus

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...I asked the Luxman guys about that impedance dip using a pair of m900 amps, as I was considering the A5s. Admittedly, I was apprehensive after the above cited JA review note.

It took a week or so, with exchanges between Magico and Lux engineers in Japan, but the word back was it will be fine...and sound great. Listen to any music you like...just no test-sweep files that might linger in that dip at volume. They were right and they sound great. Nice thread, gents. Thank you.
 
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Gregadd

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Don
As audiophiles are wanting to do. I now have settled on a speaker. I try to mix and match an amplifier I like with no real idea if it's a good technical match for.
Parasound Halo JC 1 monoblocks. they have been around for a while, have a good pedigree and sound good. Let's see if they can handle this load.

Link
520PHJC1Pfig01.jpg JC1fig2.jpg JC1FIG3.jpg
 

DonH50

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Technically the JC1 looks like a great match. Maintains low output impedance past 20 kHz, handled a 2-ohm load with prodigious output power, low distortion, and decent SNR. Seems like a winner, hope it sounds great!
 

Gregadd

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...hope it sounds great. [Text omitted]
Thanks Don,
You do bring us to that age old dilemma for audiophiles. In fact, it is probably what prompted us to become audiophiles in the first place.
Certainly, we all want an amp that is technically correct. However, there is all too often that disconnect between measurements and sonic excellence. Although I am a tube guy there are speakers that sound better when driven by solid- state.
It relatively common to have a great amp, put on the test bench and find the results disappointing. OTOH a great measuring amp can just end up leaving you cold when actual music is played through it.
I certainly dint want to revive the debate over personal biases. You do however want to avoid obvious mismatches that will result in descendant audible results. We know enough about some of them to avoid that.
 

Gregadd

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Don, for the average user we would shoehorn our new speaker into our system with our favorite amp. In my case that would be Moscode 402AU.
I'll you some measurements.
 

Gregadd

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microstrip

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I must say I can't imagine how someone can settle on a speaker without considering simultaneously the amplifier. What is the purpose of buying a speaker if you later find you can't match it with electronics you praise and want or because you can't offer adequate and reliable electronics for them?

BTW, the Parasound JC1 can handle anything - even some Wilson Audio inefficient subs - but the Moscode 402 can't handle the A5 - it is clearly written there and shown in the graphs.

Fig.3 shows how the THD+N percentage varies with output power into 8 and 4 ohms (but not 2 ohms, due to the amplifier having problems driving loads below 4 ohms)

Measurements will not tell us a system sounds good, but sometimes, properly interpreted , will immediately tell us a system sounds poor!
 
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Gregadd

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I have previously advocated speaker and amplifier be purchased as a pair. I think we can agree that is not always the case the case.
I drove the ML CLS with the Moscode 402AU with excellent results IMO. Go Figure.:confused:
ML CLS impedance curve
 
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DonH50

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I have previously advocated speaker and amplifier be purchased as a pair. I think we can agree that is not always the case the case.
I drove the ML CLS with the Moscode 402AU with excellent results IMO. Go Figure.:confused:
ML CLS impedance curve

As @microstrip said technically the Moscode does not look like a good match to the Magico... The Magico is actually a much more difficult load than the CLS. The CLS is reasonable across most of the frequency range, like most 'stats, falling at high frequency. The load is very low at very high frequencies, but usually the power up there is also very low, so most amplifiers will handle them OK. The ones that do not IME tend to be ones with stability (oscillation) issues more so than the ones not rated for 2 ohms. Even then, most do "OK". The ESL panel is itself capacitive, but the transformer coupling to them is a big inductor, so at HF the load is very low but tends to actually be inductive rather than capacitive in my experience. Most amps are a little happier driving an inductor than a capacitor (again IME).
 

Walter66

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I usually listen around 70 dB or so average level and I have a pair of fairly low-sensitivity speakers at 84 dB/W/m. I sit around 8 feet away and need just 0.1 W from the pair to reach 70 dB at my ears. Only 1 W produces 80 dB, which to me is a loud average level. If my speakers were say 94 dB/W/m, I'd only need one-tenth the power for the same volume.

For peaks, various studies have put dynamic music at around 17 dB peak-to-average level, a power factor of 50. Movies even higher, 20 dB or more, a factor of 100 in power. That means if I crank it up and use 1 W to each speaker to produce 80 dB average at my ears, I need about 100 W if I do not want to clip the peaks.
At first, one chooses the speakers, and then an amp which matches it's power needs and have matching data.

It's hard to design good power amps with high powered output, much harder compared to good low powered designs. That's true for both technologies, transistor and tube. Of course, they exist and have always existed, but they become real monsters, and most of them sound not quite as good as those small amps, despite of their huge power output. I've studied this theme for quite a long time. If one looks at the reat great power amp designs, mostly they are low powered, true class A mode when it comes to highest sound quality.

It could be designed with ease and will give wonderfull sound when matched with LOUDspeakers instead of speakers, that are mostly power destroyers. A speaker with 84 dB is such a problematic one, needing a high powered 100W amp not to reach to the clipping zone. A disaster when it comes to building the best sound system. The speakers will destroy every small powered amp with their current needs and the big ones don't sound superior, maybe only good.

But come on, where is the problem at all? Media markets offer cheap amps with more than 100W today. But what the heck, they don't sound good at all mostly. OK, then we have the transistor monsters of the so called high end. And guess what, they even don't match to the small amps with the low powered LOUDspeakers, when it comes to real audio quality in hifi systems.

The highest-sensitivity loudspeaker differs from the normal loudspeaker in one respect: It converts a greater proportion of the electrical signal into sound. Just as a high-performance engine converts more of the fuel put into it into power. It's as simple as that. If you want more sound, you need more sensitivity, you need maximum sensitivity.

Ever since Albert Einstein found the formula for electron flow in interfaces, we have known that the transistor based on it is a thermally extremely unstable, nonlinear component. Whereas the electron tube is extremely stable, even insensitive to operating point fluctuations. The linearity of a triode is unbeatable. In other words: The transistor can only be used for the rough stuff. The development of the (cheaper) transistor amplifier and the (cheaper) insensitive loudspeaker went hand in hand. It had to be that way. No transistor amplifier, no matter how expensive and complex it may be, can stand a comparison with an equivalent tube device when listening to highly sensitive loudspeakers.

The ideal loudspeaker combines at least the following characteristics. It radiates the sound directly, works without a crossover, which makes far too many mistakes, so it uses broadband drivers, converts as much of the electrical energy as possible into sound, so it is highly sensitive, and easy to drive, that is, does not require any crazy damping factors on the part of the power amplifier, is also small enough to fit into a forty to fifty liter cabinet, after all it is supposed to be suitable for living space, and then there are a few subordinate, but unfortunately not unimportant requirements. ....in short words, the search for the Holy Grail is no more complicated. And it is no longer produced anywhere - anyone who doesn't believe it will be punished in the retail market.

So get a good LOUDspeaker and then search for a matching low powered amp. All else won't lead to highest quality in sound, but is just for some fools that believe the industry, telling the audiophiles since the invention of the transistor, that it's possible to have both- excellent sound with big powered amps and speakers, that are just power destroyers instead of high efficiency devices. If you believe this, you've just been fooled by marketing experts. It's impossible and it's not needed for home hifi anyway.

We are not in the PA section and have to sonicate the Royal Albert Hall or the Carnegie Hall. For those big venues, when it comes to electronic music amplification, we need a big powered PA system based on transistor technology. And we all know how bad that sounds, compared to high efficiency home audio systems. It's just crap, maybe an old Western Electric sound system would sound better, but thats the time today, no one uses high powered tube audio systems for big venues to sonicate anymore. It make sense to do it with big PA transistor amps, they are cheap, transportable and deliver the watts needed on the stage. But at home, no one will ever hear with this gear. Here we have the option to go the maximum sensitive route in audio, which delivers the best results with high resolution, low powered electron tube amps.
 
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DonH50

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At first, one chooses the speakers, and then an amp which matches it's power needs and have matching data.

It's hard to design good power amps with high powered output, much harder compared to good low powered designs. That's true for both technologies, transistor and tube. Of course, they exist and have always existed, but they become real monsters, and most of them sound not quite as good as those small amps, despite of their huge power output. I've studied this theme for quite a long time. If one looks at the reat great power amp designs, mostly they are low powered, true class A mode when it comes to highest sound quality.

It could be designed with ease and will give wonderfull sound when matched with LOUDspeakers instead of speakers, that are mostly power destroyers. A speaker with 84 dB is such a problematic one, needing a high powered 100W amp not to reach to the clipping zone. A disaster when it comes to building the best sound system. The speakers will destroy every small powered amp with their current needs and the big ones don't sound superior, maybe only good.

But come on, where is the problem at all? Media markets offer cheap amps with more than 100W today. But what the heck, they don't sound good at all mostly. OK, then we have the transistor monsters of the so called high end. And guess what, they even don't match to the small amps with the low powered LOUDspeakers, when it comes to real audio quality in hifi systems.

The highest-sensitivity loudspeaker differs from the normal loudspeaker in one respect: It converts a greater proportion of the electrical signal into sound. Just as a high-performance engine converts more of the fuel put into it into power. It's as simple as that. If you want more sound, you need more sensitivity, you need maximum sensitivity.

Ever since Albert Einstein found the formula for electron flow in interfaces, we have known that the transistor based on it is a thermally extremely unstable, nonlinear component. Whereas the electron tube is extremely stable, even insensitive to operating point fluctuations. The linearity of a triode is unbeatable. In other words: The transistor can only be used for the rough stuff. The development of the (cheaper) transistor amplifier and the (cheaper) insensitive loudspeaker went hand in hand. It had to be that way. No transistor amplifier, no matter how expensive and complex it may be, can stand a comparison with an equivalent tube device when listening to highly sensitive loudspeakers.

The ideal loudspeaker combines at least the following characteristics. It radiates the sound directly, works without a crossover, which makes far too many mistakes, so it uses broadband drivers, converts as much of the electrical energy as possible into sound, so it is highly sensitive, and easy to drive, that is, does not require any crazy damping factors on the part of the power amplifier, is also small enough to fit into a forty to fifty liter cabinet, after all it is supposed to be suitable for living space, and then there are a few subordinate, but unfortunately not unimportant requirements. ....in short words, the search for the Holy Grail is no more complicated. And it is no longer produced anywhere - anyone who doesn't believe it will be punished in the retail market.

So get a good LOUDspeaker and then search for a matching low powered amp. All else won't lead to highest quality in sound, but is just for some fools that believe the industry, telling the audiophiles since the invention of the transistor, that it's possible to have both- excellent sound with big powered amps and speakers, that are just power destroyers instead of high efficiency devices. If you believe this, you've just been fooled by marketing experts. It's impossible and it's not needed for home hifi anyway.

We are not in the PA section and have to sonicate the Royal Albert Hall or the Carnegie Hall. For those big venues, when it comes to electronic music amplification, we need a big powered PA system based on transistor technology. And we all know how bad that sounds, compared to high efficiency home audio systems. It's just crap, maybe an old Western Electric sound system would sound better, but thats the time today, no one uses high powered tube audio systems for big venues to sonicate anymore. It make sense to do it with big PA transistor amps, they are cheap, transportable and deliver the watts needed on the stage. But at home, no one will ever hear with this gear. Here we have the option to go the maximum sensitive route in audio, which delivers the best results with high resolution, low powered electron tube amps.
I'll leave it at my experience with tubes, transistors, and speakers differs from yours.
 

steve59

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For the OP, In my experience the higher end speakers i've owned are influenced by the partnering components and it's just as valid to select your components first and then demo speakers that go with them best.
 

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