What are members recommendations on current turntables in the $15K to $22K price range?

Atmasphere

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Now you are addressing how a manufacturer prices his line of products - it is a complex and interesting subject, but we would need real data to comment on it. But It would be great if you or someone else pointed a link to this Vladimir Lamm statement.


A typical high end manufacturer does not have the structure and capability to produce such turntable, his costs would be artificial, what is the point of such comparison?


I am not in bikes and IMHO such analogies only manage to spread noise and confusion. I appreciate debating the high-end with proper facts, without analogies.
You don't need to be into bikes to understand the underlying principle.


The reason of such a comparison is simple. Technics set an intention and followed thru with it. Because they wanted to, because its made in greater numbers; it really doesn't matter so much as the simple fact that their SL1200G (ignoring the arm) outperforms turntables that cost quite a bit more. Enough so that people owning those machines might feel like rationalizing why they spent the money.

IIRC Vladimir said that in an interview. He's got a lot of them on his site.
The bike reference is flawed anyways in that it refers to
Sorry- I don't see what you're referring to. None of your bullet points appear relevant. What am I missing?
 

Solypsa

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Jun 7, 2017
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In most cases one could do well pricing audio by the pound ;)
 
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rando

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Sorry- I don't see what you're referring to. None of your bullet points appear relevant. What am I missing?

Nothing I'd care go further off topic to make apparent.


Back to microstrip debating the high end of $15K-$22K TT. :)
 

Lee

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Feb 4, 2011
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Short list is looking like...

CS Port
Grand Prix Parabolica
TW Acustic Raven
VPI HW40
AMG Viella 12 with Turbo arm
Kuzma Stabi M or R with 4P

Looking also at Bergmann and Brinkmann...a friend has the Galder and it's really good.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Short list is looking like...

CS Port
Grand Prix Parabolica
TW Acustic Raven
VPI HW40
AMG Viella 12 with Turbo arm
Kuzma Stabi M or R with 4P

Looking also at Bergmann and Brinkmann...a friend has the Galder and it's really good.
great group you have there; can't go wrong. i'm sure many will have different favorites.
 
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AudioLibertarian

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Dec 25, 2017
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Short list is looking like...

CS Port
Grand Prix Parabolica
TW Acustic Raven
VPI HW40
AMG Viella 12 with Turbo arm
Kuzma Stabi M or R with 4P

Looking also at Bergmann and Brinkmann...a friend has the Galder and it's really good.
Rega Planar 10, SME 30, Roksan Xerxes 20 Plus, Rockport Tech, Walker Audio (despite no longer being made), custom turntables by Scienceofsightsound of Princeton, NJ (state of the art really), Micro Seiki , Vertere TT (have been a long time fan of Turaj Mogadham's designs). Also, Clearaudio TT are awesome!

Benz MIcro cartridges are sublimely musically neutral as well.

Symphonic Line Rg-6 TT is SOTA as well, if a rare bird these days, well worth seeking out (call German Acoustics in Indianapolis).
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Short list is looking like...

CS Port
Grand Prix Parabolica
TW Acustic Raven
VPI HW40
AMG Viella 12 with Turbo arm
Kuzma Stabi M or R with 4P

Looking also at Bergmann and Brinkmann...a friend has the Galder and it's really good.

IMO, the Raven is too laid back. lacking some energy. The Brinkmann Balance was quite superior to the Monaco 1.5 in a direct compare. Apart from my own personal view (based on listening), Vienna (Savvas) on this forum measured many and found the BB to have the best measurements. The Galder as a complete unit with a linear tracker is cheaper if LT option is preferred, which I find good using Top Wing Red Sparrow in SETs horns type systems as the linear tracker red sparrow combo heightens nuance and agility and lack of distortion on violin highs is very musical. You will find the Galder lacking in weight and authority to the Balance whether with LT or pivot.

Fremer has reviewed each of those except CS Post, and I think he hasn't done VPI, not sure. He loves the BB. He also responds to PMs asking advice regarding those, you could simply say since you have reviewed the Galder, Stabi M, BB, and AMG VIella, what do you think? I did PM that exact question. I wouldn't bother asking him about Monaco because that remains one of his most negative reviews.

Imo it is quite superior to the likes of techdas AF1 premium, kronos, SME, Doehmann 1 etc, and only something like Vyger or some very rare tables, specially modded idlers or DDs, carefully set up by experts might beat it on a case by case basis.

Additionally, Marc Gomez of SAT also had advised tang to buy it saying it is superior to some high priced tables. In future you could always replace the Brinkmann arm with any arm you choose, from SME to SAT to linear trackers including the Bergmann Odin and Schroeder LT
 
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DasguteOhr

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Sep 26, 2013
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A Raven laid back, i never heard him so.I know it in all possible configurations, very dark background, no noises paired with an enormous attack. if I only listen to classical music I wouldn’t take a Raven,because he’s always on the gas, even though the music called for rest and break.
Raven AC with Black Night equipment 016.JPG Raven R10.5.JPG
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Dark too. And I auditioned exclusively on classical with different arms and carts
 
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timztunz

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Apr 23, 2018
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Dark too. And I auditioned exclusively on classical with different arms and carts
Could be that's an important factor. Because I don't listen to classical at all and I don't find any of the characteristics you describe like dark, laid back, lacking energy......
 

DasguteOhr

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2013
650
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Here also different tonearms with the same cartridge Dynavector XV 1s. Ok... the raven 10.5 tonearm, is better than the phantom. Cleaner highs, more dynamic, deeper bass.
I love that Combination 10.5 /XV1s;)
TW- Acustic Raven 10.5 058..JPG
 
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allvinyl

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Apr 10, 2013
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...
When Technics set out to do the SL1200G they apparently did a from-the-ground-up redesign. A customer of ours wanted to send one to us to see what we could do with it so I took it apart and did an inspection. This is one of those places where an enourmous R&D budget (Technics is Panasonic after all...) really pays off. The machine has little in common with their older SL1200s except appearance. For example, its one of the most speed-stable turntables made at any price.

Get a Sutherland Timeline and you'll see what I mean. You can play an LP all day with that machine and the dots will stay firmly in place on the wall. Most machines made for high end audio can't do that.

In addition the new SL1200 uses 5 different methods of vibration/damping control. It has a rigid and non-resonant plinth- which is what you want for the platter bearing and the tonearm mount to prevent vibration from creating colorations.

Its weaknesses are the tonearm (which is vastly improved over the stock arm of years ago) and the platter pad. But its easy enough to mount a different arm on the 'table, and we've done it a number of times, using the Triplanar, which is a state of the art arm.

....

Questions:
1. the speed stability is constant during play so the motor control compensates for stylus drag, etc?
2. looking at the design, how do you accommodate mounting a Tri-Planar or other tonearm? You must have to install/create an armboard specific to that arm's length.
3. what length arms can be mounted?
4. replace the platter pad with?
 

jespera

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Jan 12, 2018
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Ok, we agre it does not hurt. But the fact that the point can stay static forever has no correlation with sound quality. Such point only shows how subjective and unreliable can be our comments on value in the high-end. MHO, but consider the point you refer as a kind of Veblen feeling - people feel confidence in this type of misleading and abusive information, if it is accurate it should sound good. BTW, I also consider that the current Technics are top turntables - I could happily live with an SP10 R with an SME or Graham.



We recently had an interesting debate on this subject, thanks. It started here https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/post-744076



IMHO feedback in turntables has no relation with feedback in amplifiers, although some controllers of turntables that have no feedback use feedback in the wave generators and drivers. Confusing? ;)



Now you are addressing how a manufacturer prices his line of products - it is a complex and interesting subject, but we would need real data to comment on it. But It would be great if you or someone else pointed a link to this Vladimir Lamm statement.



A typical high end manufacturer does not have the structure and capability to produce such turntable, his costs would be artificial, what is the point of such comparison?



I am not in bikes and IMHO such analogies only manage to spread noise and confusion. I appreciate debating the high-end with proper facts, without analogies.

Feedback: … belt driven turntables have a feedback system in the form of a rotating platter suspended in a belt …
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Feedback: … belt driven turntables have a feedback system in the form of a rotating platter suspended in a belt …

With a massive platter and good bearing, inertia/momentum is very constant and there is no need for continuous checking and adjusting the motor. I think the Technics platter is not very heavy, but it is all relative and there seem to be many opinions on what combination sounds best.
 
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Atmasphere

[Industry Expert]
May 4, 2010
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www.atma-sphere.com
Questions:
1. the speed stability is constant during play so the motor control compensates for stylus drag, etc?
2. looking at the design, how do you accommodate mounting a Tri-Planar or other tonearm? You must have to install/create an armboard specific to that arm's length.
3. what length arms can be mounted?
4. replace the platter pad with?
1. Yes
2 and 3. I designed an armboard of the same alloy and thickness as the plinth. The Triplanar mounts on top. Doing that, we were even able to mount the 12" Triplanar (FWIW this puts the combination well within the price limits of this thread)
4. I like the Oracle mat. Its not too hard, not too soft; the patter pad has to be the same hardness as the LP for best effect. It has to be permanently mounted to the platter so you can't use the platter mounting hardware.

Nothing I'd care go further off topic to make apparent.
I'll take that as a red herring then.
Feedback: … belt driven turntables have a feedback system in the form of a rotating platter suspended in a belt …
And many of them employ feedback (servo control) to keep the motor speed constant. That is how my Sota Cosmos worked.
 

Lee

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Feb 4, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
great group you have there; can't go wrong. i'm sure many will have different favorites.

Adding Bergmann Modi with Thor arm for a bit less than budget as a possibility.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
Maybe the Bergmann Galder as well potentially at a bit more money.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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You don't need to be into bikes to understand the underlying principle.


No one questions the principle, just if it applies or not to the high-end with major significance.
Or if simply, usually but not always, more money returns better performance and people just generically and unconsciously apply this rule.

The reason of such a comparison is simple. Technics set an intention and followed thru with it. Because they wanted to, because its made in greater numbers; it really doesn't matter so much as the simple fact that their SL1200G (ignoring the arm) outperforms turntables that cost quite a bit more. Enough so that people owning those machines might feel like rationalizing why they spent the money.

You consider that the SL1200G outperforms outperforms turntables that cost quite a bit more - an individual opinion. Why should we consider that the people who own the other turntables are the fools and you are the wise man?

Vinyl is extremely subjective and varied. Its technical analysis is extremely complex, unless we just want to say that the Oracle Delphi is 634 times better than the Linn LP12 - I hope I am getting the factor correctly! :)

IIRC Vladimir said that in an interview. He's got a lot of them on his site.
Yes, it is why I asked for a direct link. A nice thing about Lamm is that their site is filled with a lot of relevant information, but finding something specific can take some time . Anyway I will try to search it.
 

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