What are you favorite 845 tubes?

[Ovenmitt]

Hello out there in tube land,

I have been using an ART Audio PX25 amp to power my Avantgarde Duo’s for the past few years. Since owning it, I have rolled in some NOS triode and rectifier tubes to amazing effect. I just purchased a pair of Nagra VPA’s and can’t help but wonder about some of the new 845’s that are being manufactured these days.

Specifically:
Elrog - I have read that they sound great but may have reliability issues.
Psvane - how are their RCA replica and other lines comparing to some of the other Chinese (or European) tubes on the market.
KR - these came stock in my PX25. They were decent sounding and reliable, but easily bettered by NOS GEC, Marconi, and Valvo. Is anyone using their 845’s?
Are there other current manufacture tubes that should be on my short list?

NOS: how do the current manufacture tubes compare to the RCA’s, etc.?

Thanks in advance to any insight you might be able to share...

 

[amadeus]

845 tubes are some of my favorite power tubes and in the past i did use some amps whit them.

In General:

-United 845 this are quite possible best ever build strong bass superior open midrange magic and rich harmonic texture. Difficult to find and expensief.

-RCA 845 i have never heard those but the general opinion is that this are second best 845 tubes after united .

-Elrog 845 the New production which are may favorites midrange magic bass treble every bit is Musicality not cheap but very very good.

-KR 845 strong but a bit on the analytic coldish side not my taste.

-Chinese 845 tubes i did hear some of them and surprising they doesn't sound bad at all for the price(!) performance is very good and in general quite acceptable.

 

[Ovenmitt]

Thank you Amadeus. Good info for sure. The RCA and United’s seem hard to find. Are they worth the extra cost?..... although, having said that, my PX25 experiences told me that NOS was far superior to new.... hmmmm.... maybe someone else can chime in with more?

 

[kodomo]

I had Elrog 845 a few years ago so they were old ones not the new production, KR845, Shuguang 845, Psvane WE replica 845. I have Psvane Acme 845 to try, they have arrived but I will be having an operation so I won't be able to listen for the next 10 days.

Elrog failed so I changed it to KR845 and KR's failed for two times so I moved on to Psvane WE replica's and I really liked them for sound and reliability. The Elrogs had a marginally better sound though this is from memory but WE replicas were better than KR's as I had to chance to listen side by side.

I have high hopes for Psvane Acme 845

 

[Brf]

I currently have quite a few pair of 845. In order of preference:

1. 1941 RCA 845.

2. 1959 United 845W with the JAN-CUE designation and with the getter capsule

These two are the best. To my ears, I like the RCA a touch better than the United, but often swap back and forth with various other 845.

3a. SuperTnT metal plate 845W "Nobleman"

These are my daily use tubes which were produced in very limited numbers and no longer made. These are the only high dissipation metal plate tubes produced. Very detailed, with extended highs. Bass extension almost as good the RCA and United.

3b. Psvane 845 WE Replicas

Very nice tubes and do everything well without any noticeable short comings. Very reliable and well built

4 Shuguang 845C

Very sweet sound metal plate but does not conform the RCA specification standard. This tube is a 65-70w dissipation. Most 845 amps will burn this tube up.

5. 1972 Centron 845W JAN

Very rugged tube with excellent build quality. Not sure if it is still produced. I purchased mine direct from Richardson Electronics about 7-8 years ago.

6. Shuguang 845B, Psvane 845 T and TII series

Great all round tube. Can’t be beat for the price

7. Shuguang 845

The tube that typically comes standard with current production amplifiers. They last a long time and sound pretty good

Elrog - very interesting design. I would be interested in trying a pair to try out but they have had huge reliability problems which I've heard have been addressed, although I have not read any collaborating reports.

I no longer seek out United and vintage RCA due to their very high asking prices, but value is purely subjective. Half the fun of these tubes is hunting down a pair for a fair value which has become almost impossible. My vintage 845 tubes are the only pieces of audio equipment that has actually appreciated in value.

 

[DSkip]

I don't have the experience you guys have, but a friend of mine who chased 845's recommended the Shuguang Natural Sound 845-T as his favorite. I ordered a pair a few months ago and swapped them in over the 845-B's and it was a substantial upgrade.

 

[Ovenmitt]

Super good information from everyone.... Thank you very much! The NOS RCA's may be fun to chase down at some point (but not pay for ).

I'd love to know more about the reliability of the new production Elrogs; they look like a very intriguing tube. Does anyone know who the best (i.e., most reliable) source for these tubes is?

Again, thank you for the valuable information

 

[VinylSavor]

@Ovenmitt The reliability problems have long been solved since I took over the company 2 and a half years ago. The 845 has been completely redesigned and has almost nothing in common with the old tubes. Field failure rate is well below 1% now. I have distributors for Elrog tubes in Asia and the US. All other regions can order directly from the factory. You can contact me for more information

Best regards

Thomas

 

[Aperalim]

I have been using new production Elrog ER845 tubes for last 18 months in my Absolare Altius 845SET monoblocks and they have proven to be very reliable with no issues whatsoever after the redesign and these tubes with inverted plate structure sound even better than previous designs.
Highly recommended!

 

[gian60]

My friend had first Gakuon with 845,then production was made with 211,and we tried different nos tube and the best was United

 

[amadeus]

I have been using new production Elrog ER845 tubes for last 18 months in my Absolare Altius 845SET monoblocks and they have proven to be very reliable with no issues whatsoever after the redesign and these tubes with inverted plate structure sound even better than previous designs.
Highly recommended!

Absolare Monos are great enjoy them.

 

[Aperalim]

Absolare Monos are great enjoy them.

Cheers Amadeus I agree !!

 

[microstrip]

Any opinions on the CETRON 845?

Can I ask what is the typical life in hours of such tubes in pushpull amplifiers?

 

[Tubelurker]

I have a mate and others that rated the Cetrons very highly in their amps, almost up with the RCA's in their eyes.
I uncovered a couple more 845's a few days ago, both are used but in reasonable condition physically, testing will tell.
The Philips 845 is new to me, has anyone had experience with them?

 

[Anchorman]

Bit late to this thread so some of this may have been answered...fwiw

Elrogs: Sadly won't fit the Nagra VPA. I was keen to try 'em but in speaking with Thomas Meyer (Elrog) the tubes are manufactured at larger diameter to the 845 specification and will not fit. (the glass sits ever so slightly within the top plate of the VPA and is a fine tolerance - not room. (I thought of having it milled out, but then the tube cgae won't fit and they cannot be milled....
KR845: Nagra used to supply these (eons ago) then KR Audio departed from the 845 specs and Nagra dropped them. More misery.
PSVane: I spend much time with the delightful Rachel of Grant Fidelity. Having tried the WE845 I found the standards selected Nagra tubes better. I might revisit that.
PSVane: ACME: more costly than the WE845 but a larger tube diameter. Won't fit!

NOS tubes like the RCA are super expensive. Rumoured to last a lifetime, but at $2k per tube, it makes for an expensive gamble. Not to mention losing one and trying to match up a replacement. Maybe one day if money and time is no object.

So with all that, I use Nagra sourced tubes. Boring, but the service is great (845s are notoriously difficult to ship with high failure rates). Here's the thing...I heard from my distributor that Nagra recently took to using PSVanes WE845. Now that tube with Nagra's quality selection and rejection process might really be something... It's on my list as soon as I get time.

 

[Ovenmitt]

Bit late to this thread so some of this may have been answered...fwiw

Elrogs: Sadly won't fit the Nagra VPA. I was keen to try 'em but in speaking with Thomas Meyer (Elrog) the tubes are manufactured at larger diameter to the 845 specification and will not fit. (the glass sits ever so slightly within the top plate of the VPA and is a fine tolerance - not room. (I thought of having it milled out, but then the tube cgae won't fit and they cannot be milled....
KR845: Nagra used to supply these (eons ago) then KR Audio departed from the 845 specs and Nagra dropped them. More misery.
PSVane: I spend much time with the delightful Rachel of Grant Fidelity. Having tried the WE845 I found the standards selected Nagra tubes better. I might revisit that.
PSVane: ACME: more costly than the WE845 but a larger tube diameter. Won't fit!

NOS tubes like the RCA are super expensive. Rumoured to last a lifetime, but at $2k per tube, it makes for an expensive gamble. Not to mention losing one and trying to match up a replacement. Maybe one day if money and time is no object.

So with all that, I use Nagra sourced tubes. Boring, but the service is great (845s are notoriously difficult to ship with high failure rates). Here's the thing...I heard from my distributor that Nagra recently took to using PSVanes WE845. Now that tube with Nagra's quality selection and rejection process might really be something... It's on my list as soon as I get time.

Hi Anchorman,

This is really good information since I also own a pair of Nagra VPA's. You've just saved me A LOT of time and research. I was interested in the Elrogs and the ACME tubes and was wondering if they would fit. From pictures that I've seen they look larger than the stock Nagra 845's.... This is indeed a bummer!

Do I understand you correctly, that you prefer the Nagra supplied 845's to the PSVane WE845 tubes? Have you tried any other tubes that you found interesting?

 

[Anchorman]

Hi Ovenmitt,

Yes, I think I do. I thought (albeit subjectively) the Nagra tube was a bit more resolving and offered a deeper soundstage. Others' and your mileage may vary. Couple of things I would say... My test at the time was a bit rushed but it was relatively new Nagra tubes (Shuguang) vs. a new set of WE845s, the latter broken in for at least 100 hours. Maybe they needed more time. IMO alot of the differences between tubes is the tolerances to which they are manufactured. Nagra take a cheap tube and reject most of them. Through that selection process they they effectively get to a great tube (if it survives shipping). PSVane (which is part of the Shuguang factory anyway) set out to make a great tube, but I suspect don't reject that many. So one could be lucky or maybe not.

Here's the thing, I'd try them again but if Nagra has moved away from Shuguang (845B's I think) to the WE845, that tube combined with their stringent selection may make for a truly great tube. It is expensive though. I think I was paying about 800 bucks for a pair (of Shuguangs) and now it's $1,400 per matched pair. I belive they are PSVanes but couldn't get an absolute confirmation, hence I haven't proceeded with a replacement. (I tend to change tubes on a whim rather than because they exhibit end of life symptoms).

Tube rolling on the 845 is difficult especially when one needs four matched. The VPA is VERY sensitive to matching and I have had lots of problems biasing new 845s. You get a small window to adjust before the safety circuit kicks in and it's nerve wracking...Reset the amp, try to remember where you'd gotten to, restart the amp and try again with breath held. To be honest, I've too many poor experiences with NOS tubes not properly matched so for the VPA, with the exception of the E182CC (aka 7119) driver tube (the single one) I've stopped rolling VPA tubes and stick with Nagra. Again, if the input and differential tubes (both ECC83 aka 12AX7) are not REALLY closely matched, you'll get an uncomfortable speaker thump on power up. I think you use horns, so not sure of the risks there though tube amps are less inclined to damage speakers than their transistor counterpart.

If you were up for it, I was once minded to try Sophia Electric tubes. I think you can also use a 211 for a different flavour. Never tried that and would double check on specs first. My recollection suggests you won't get 50 watts though, but you may not need that with your efficiency.

Let me know how you get on. At some point I have my eye on a replacement Pre....

 

[Ovenmitt]

FWIW, and this may not apply at all to the 845 - I had an Art Audio PX25 amp that I loved, but recently sold. I did a lot of tube rolling with this amp. At the time, when I bought the amp, the KR's performed really well for a "new production" tube. Somewhere along the way they changed the tube and it was a noticeably less robust construction. It didn't sound nearly as good as the earlier production tubes that came with the amp either. I rolled Sophia mesh plate and thought they sounded dreadful. I took the chance on some NOS PX25's (much more affordable then NOS 845's) and never looked back. The NOS tubes were hands down better, across the board.

All of this sticks with me in my pursuit of 845's for the Nagra VPA. I don't have much interest in Sophia's. I would very much like to check into the NOS tubes but they are incredibly over priced. Still searching for the best new production 845 - now with the caveat; will the tube actually fit into the amp.

 

[Anchorman]

Oh well, that's puts paid to tying the Sophias. No reason to think they can build a better 845 than they can a PX25... Non Nagra tubes will invalidate your warranty if yours are under warranty still, btw.

If you do go down the NOS (or new production) rolling avenue (and certainly I prefer NOS tubes of what I have experienced, just not in the VPAs for electronic rather than sonic reasons) let us know how you get on. I'll ping you when I get round to replacing mine towards the Fall as I'm keen to see if it's PSVane WE845 on Nagra stringent selection steroids...that might be a reliable and sonic treat.

 

[dr-db2]

Ovenmitt, my new Art Audio PX25 is enroute from England and due next week. I ordered it with KRs, tube rectification (NOS Mullards), silver wiring, & Hoveland Yellow Caps and will also be driving a pair of Avantgarde Duos. Have you found a NOS tube that is clearly the best? NOS GECs seem readily available on ebay for $1200; are they good? Thanks.