What is "fast" ?

[tima]

I am listening now with Atlantis,some lp direct to disc,33 and 45,and is really incredible how is fast and dynamic this TT

What is fast supposed to mean anyway?

I hear clarity at live music events. Gian, do you like the system to impart a sense of speed on every recording, or are you simply talking about the system not sounding sluggish or slow? The vdH Master Signature is certainly dynamic and clean sounding. When the music is fast, the MS allows you to appreciate the speed. ...

You know it when you hear it....

We see the word "fast" used in posts and reviews to describe a system or a component. The posts above (from this thread) made me think again about the word. And the more I thought about it the more its meaning became unclear to me. @RogerD's answer - which may very well be correct - says the meaning of "fast" is experiential - you know "fast" when you hear it - but what is it that is being heard? Can we describe whatever that is?

If the word does not come to mind' through experience, does the attribute not exist for me or is it a failure in my hearing, imagintion or vocabulary? That seems to be an issue with strictly experiential definitions. They are not clear, distinct or definite. Thus I'm asking, does the word have a definition in language? Well, of course it does because we use "fast" all the time to describe the relative quickness or relative speed of an thing or event. Bernstein's 4th movement was 2 minutes faster than Klemper's.

But what does it mean in an audio context such as @gian60 's description of a turntable?

I'm guessing that he is not describing a turntalbe rotating at 35rpm. Does a low compliance cantilever transistion a groove ridge faster than a high compliance cart?
Do some systems process electrons quicker than others or do electrons travel quicker or slower in some systems depending on metallurgy? Some speaker drivers return to form quicker than others? The speed of sound is different at different temperatures or atmospheres - but I don't think that's what is described about a turntable (or any piece or gear.)

I liked @PeterA 's response. If I may expand ... The relative clarity and 'clean' sound of a component is reflected in the distinctness and separation of notes and this comes through well on fast tempo or short time value notes. The leading edge of a fistfull of pizzacato notes is crisp and each note is distinct. We label our experience of such as "fast" and (perhaps incorrectly) ascribe it to gear? So "fast" is a function of clarity and distinctness and better to use those words than "fast" as a shorthand. But that is a possible example, not an accepted definition, although it could be.

So what is talked about when we hear a component or system described as "fast"? What does it mean to you when you read "fast" as an attribute ascribed to a piece of audio gear?

 

[bonzo75]

I use the word fast in the context Gian has used with Vyger to describe that we feel, for example, the violinist is moving his now faster. We get this feeling because of more nuance and variation. So you hear more things happening, fast. The linear tracker transitions quickly from note to note, I heard this with the versa dynamics at Pietro as well, and he explained this is because LTs don't have skating and anti skating forces slowing them down.

Tang's vdh on 3012r also appears fast, in terms of it gives live speed through more nuance, fast transients, etc

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Apologies for brevity as on phone:

> Of a speaker. The sound with precisely timed and co-ordinated (between drivers) leading edge transients with a lack of flabby bass overhang.

> Of a TT. A TT that has drive again with leading edge definition without blurring in that front edge attack of a note. Cleanly articulated bass rather than plodding one note boom bass.

 

[howiebrou]

Nimble.

 

[tima]

I use the word fast in the context Gian has used with Vyger to describe that we feel, for example, the violinist is moving his now faster. We get this feeling because of more nuance and variation. So you hear more things happening, fast. The linear tracker transitions quickly from note to note, I heard this with the versa dynamics at Pietro as well, and he explained this is because LTs don't have skating and anti skating forces slowing them down.

Tang's vdh on 3012r also appears fast, in terms of it gives live speed through more nuance, fast transients, etc

Pardon, but I don't understand what you're saying.

I'm guessing you meant "the violinist is moving his [bow] faster." "We get this feeling because of more nuance variation." The violinist is moving his bow at the same speed on every record. But, if we hear more nuance and variation, the what, the system?, a component? is described as fast or faster than one where we do not hear the same nuance and variation? Is "fast" just more nuance and variation, which some might call details?

Anti-skating forces slow down what? The tonearm? Will a side finish sooner if it has an arm without antiskating?

Is "fast" entirely subjective - is hearing something as fast entirely up to the individual listener?

I'm now wondering if there is 'objective fast' which we can measure, and 'subjective fast' which is a feeling or impression that we have. But I still wonder if "fast" is simply covering over different words.

 

[Alrainbow]

As I have built many servers and forgive me in adding to this analog thread. servers use a given OS the OS used has its own sound. like many say all we use has a sound. some OS systems have a speed of decay. faster decay = faster of how long a given note hangs. faster also = thinner
so any given speaker or entire system can only go so fast before it has a bad effect on timbre. to me there are more then one type of fast ina given system.
one fast is how fast it rises and falls off while a little can be decay the larger is how fast it can grow. you can have speed or fast and still have limits on dynamics. fast gives us more micro details while big dynamics give us macro. when a symbol crashes you need both types of speed to capture it well. If your system can’t grow fast it still gives you one type of speed in being micro. How much macro is how much headroom your amp and system can go to. This is my take on it hope it makes sense

 

[PeterA]

Is "fast" entirely subjective - is hearing something as fast entirely up to the individual listener?

I'm now wondering if there is 'objective fast' which we can measure, and 'subjective fast' which is a feeling or impression that we have. But I still wonder if "fast" is simply covering over different words.

An audiophile friend discusses "rise time" when referring to his gear as being fast. I get the sense that some others may be referrencing the perception of speed when mentioning "dynamic headroom". Perhaps collectively they are talking about certain types of circuits, the speed of certain loudspeaker drivers, the perception of transients with some cartridges, and having more than sufficient power to drive particular speakers. My friend uses terms like speed and clarity and articulation to describe his system. The speed of electrostatic speakers relative to cone speakers for instance. I presume he thinks this is measurable to some extent.

In terms of subjective perception, I believe he thinks it is a clean, articulate sound rather than a sluggish or muddy sound. Personally, I don't really like the term "fast". Is it in HP's glossary of audiophile terms?

MikeL's use his term "Warp 9" implies ultra speed to me, because it conjures images of the Starship Enterprise blasting through space, but he may mean something else entirely.

If the system always makes the music sound fast, something is wrong. Just as it is if it always sounds slow. There are fast and slow movements, and they should come across as such. The term is too vague, in my opinion.

 

[djsina2]

Worst term ever since music is based on time.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree about speed of electrostats relative to cones. I can see why ack likes that

 

[the sound of Tao]

Is the impression of fast a case of the tracking of change more truly and accurately, a lack of apparent perceived lag?

Is fast a reflection of the attack and decay of sound, the rate of rise and fall, the lack of overhang or of any reticence in following the signal and is fast always a true reflection of the actual speed of the apparent action or is it also an impression that can be heightened or amplified in some ways by the state of our experience.

Is fast a combination of the tension of our anticipation and retention and our level of engagement and the lock and intensity of our gaze? An outcome of the rate of register and refresh?

 

[bonzo75]

Fast is how it sounds. Or rather, the opposite is sluggish..

With speakers, it is more about grip on drivers. Too much chokes, too little is sluggish movement. The fastest, for example, is very low watt amps with very high sensitive speakers. You can immediately hear a difference when you drop from a big tube like 211, 845 or 833 to a smaller one like 2a3 provided it can drive the speaker. If the 2a3 cannot drive, the headroom will be less, it will sound dynamically compressed, and woofers will move sluggishly

The faster ones do more and are therefore more exciting as opposed to boring. This is a positive term, and does not mean hurried, which is a negative term.

 

[bonzo75]

Is the impression of fast a case of the tracking of change more accurately, the lack of apparent lag, is fast a reflection of the attack and decay of sound, the rate of rise and fall, lack of overhang or of any reticence in following the signal and is fast always a true reflection of the actual speed of the apparent action or is it also an impression that can be heightened or amplified In some ways by the state of our experience, a combination of the tension of our anticipation and retention and our level of engagement or the lock and intensity of our focus?

Very well said, as usual.

 

[Zero000]

Impulse response of a loudspeaker probably has a lot to do with it.

It's low in stats and ribbons. Usually.

So in other words if you stick a quick transient into a speaker, now does it react after the event.

This is very measurable.

 

[bonzo75]

Fast - vdh, Lyra, Vyger and other LTs, electrostats, ribbon midrange, panel bass, in SS amps Spectral, CH, Goldmund, Soulution, Boulder, Dagostino, NOT Vitus, Luxman, Pass.. In valves, very low output valves with well matched speakers, then keeps slowing down and push pull relatively quite slow. Standard cones - Slow. Tannoy - slow. Underdrivern or overrgripped - slow.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Very well said, as usual.

Thanks Ked, but I am more slow than fast so added some more bits after...
signed
The king of lag

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Ked, but I am more slow than fast so added some more bits after...
signed
The king of lag

We are just explaining to those slow on the uptake

 

[the sound of Tao]

It is also about my apparent rate of decay.

 

[bonzo75]

It is true that some try to appear fast by truncating notes and just giving leading edge

 

[Mike Lavigne]

--fast relative to a hifi system is the ability to stop and start like reality. it's related to the concept of smearing, blunting, and rounding. OTOH there is also 'too fast' where the sound does not properly decay and develop......again like reality. reality is.........real.

my Taiko Tana active devices promote 'fast' as they reduce the degree of smearing for gear that is sympathetic to what they do. they allow for linearity on note development as the music gets more intense. they break the chain of resonance feedback that compromises musical rightness on complicated music.

another aspect of 'fast' is degrees of cone linearity, which relates to amount of cone/membrane surface and how 'easy' the speaker has it at peak moments. and when the driver is stressed it kicks back to the amp that is trying to control it. you need headroom in driver surface and amps to stay fast.

when i see higher peak watts on my dart mono's from an analog source compared to the same recording played at the same level on a digital transfer, that is showing how one version has the peaks smeared so the peak energy is reduced. the 'speed' of the music has been blunted. this is another aspect of 'fast'. analog has higher capacity for dynamic peaks.....in my humble experience. can't speak to the theory of how things should be. just what my ears hear and my eyes see on the read-out.

 

[Leif S]

--fast relative to a hifi system is the ability to stop and start like reality. it's related to the concept of smearing, blunting, and rounding. OTOH there is also 'too fast' where the sound does not properly decay and develop......again like reality. reality is.........real.

my Taiko Tana active devices promote 'fast' as they reduce the degree of smearing for gear that is sympathetic to what they do. they allow for linearity on note development as the music gets more intense. they break the chain of resonance feedback that compromises musical rightness on complicated music.

another aspect of 'fast' is degrees of cone linearity, which relates to amount of cone/membrane surface and how 'easy' the speaker has it at peak moments. and when the driver is stressed it kicks back to the amp that is trying to control it. you need headroom in driver surface and amps to stay fast.

Mike you nailed it. Fast for me only has one meaning since I design soeakers. How fast do the drivers start and stop.
They say the human ear can start to detect audible differences around 5 ms. I believe this is false but we don't have a way to prove it. The above step response shows a soeaker that starts and stops within roughly 2ms. It returns to base line. Find me another box soeaker that can do this. Most box soeakers don't return to baseline until many ms well into the auditory range . This is distortion. The only other soeakers I have seen return to baseline this fast are planners. I can see why someone made the comment that fast means lean because you are removing so much hangtime from the woofers. Fast should not mean lean. I have never considered my soeakers lean and it is the exact opposite. For me soeed is everything. A slow soeaker would be a very forgiving soeaker but you IMO will never capture the realism of the performance.