What is "Pin-Point Imaging" to you?

[treitz3]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen of the WBF. In another thread, there has been a discombobulated discussion with what exactly this means to listeners. The comments suggested that this term, with regards to hi-fi reproduction, needs a little bit more clarity with what it actually means. This thread is an attempt to further clarify what it means and "hopefully" we can all come to a general consensus as to what it means for most of us when we use the term. At the very least, it may shed some light into the way this term is perceived.

For some? It's a bad term thought of in negative light. For others? It's a positive that adds to the listening experience.

What say you?

Tom

 

[ddk]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen of the WBF. In another thread, there has been a discombobulated discussion with what exactly this means to listeners. The comments suggested that this term, with regards to hi-fi reproduction, needs a little bit more clarity with what it actually means. This thread is an attempt to further clarify what it means and "hopefully" we can all come to a general consensus as to what it means for most of us when we use the term. At the very least, it may shed some light into the way this term is perceived.

For some? It's a bad term thought of in negative light. For others? It's a positive that adds to the listening experience.

What say you?

Tom

Initially the term was used with a clear negative connotation as suggested in the context of those initial posts. I see it as a combination of strong coloration, distortion and homogenization. My definition is based on direct experience with certain recommended products by magazines to create pinpoint imaging.

david

 

[morricab]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen of the WBF. In another thread, there has been a discombobulated discussion with what exactly this means to listeners. The comments suggested that this term, with regards to hi-fi reproduction, needs a little bit more clarity with what it actually means. This thread is an attempt to further clarify what it means and "hopefully" we can all come to a general consensus as to what it means for most of us when we use the term. At the very least, it may shed some light into the way this term is perceived.

For some? It's a bad term thought of in negative light. For others? It's a positive that adds to the listening experience.

What say you?

Tom

pinpoint
verb [ T ]

/?p?n.p??nt/


C2
to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:
It is not possible to pinpoint precisely the time of death.

C2
to discover or describe the exact facts about something:
Emergency workers at the site are still unable to pinpoint the cause of the explosion.


pinpoint
adjective [ before noun ]



/?p?n.p??nt/


very exact:
The computer will calculate your position with pinpoint accuracy.

 

[morricab]

pinpoint
verb [ T ]

/?p?n.p??nt/


C2
to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:
It is not possible to pinpoint precisely the time of death.

C2
to discover or describe the exact facts about something:
Emergency workers at the site are still unable to pinpoint the cause of the explosion.


pinpoint
adjective [ before noun ]



/?p?n.p??nt/


very exact:
The computer will calculate your position with pinpoint accuracy.

As you can see, the official definition of the word pinpoint has nothing to do with what David is referring to when he (inappropriately, IMO) defines pinpoint.

 

[ddk]

pinpoint
verb [ T ]

/?p?n.p??nt/


C2
to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:
It is not possible to pinpoint precisely the time of death.

C2
to discover or describe the exact facts about something:
Emergency workers at the site are still unable to pinpoint the cause of the explosion.


pinpoint
adjective [ before noun ]



/?p?n.p??nt/


very exact:
The computer will calculate your position with pinpoint accuracy.

As you can see, the official definition of the word pinpoint has nothing to do with what David is referring to when he (inappropriately, IMO) defines pinpoint.

That's a straight dictionary definition without consideration for context totally ignoring that PPI can be a coloration and a distortion created by a component.

Inappropriate is your opinion ignoring context.

david

 

[Robh3606]

Interesting thread!

That's a straight dictionary definition without consideration for context totally ignoring that PPI can be a coloration and a distortion created by a component.

Hello David

Please explain how Pin Point imaging can be a coloration or distortion?? I have found it to be an ability of speakers to reproduce and/or focus the panning and localization clues that are put into recordings through the mastering process.

Rob

 

[morricab]

That's a straight dictionary definition without consideration for context ignoring that PPI can be a coloration and a distortion created by a component.

Inappropriate is your opinion ignoring the context words are used in.

david

No, David, you are trying to twist clear definitions to your own biases.

to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:

very exact:

So, when someone is saying a system has pinpoint imaging they are referring to the localization and the EXACTNESS of that localization that a system creates in the users mind's eye.

What you are trying to refer to, I think, is the CAUSE of pinpoint imaging and suggesting that it is always a flaw in a system because it has very exact imaging.

You are convoluting the thing itstelf (pinpoint imaging) and it's cause (coloration/distortion etc.).

 

[ddk]

Interesting thread!


Please explain how Pin Point imaging can be a coloration or distortion?? I have found it to be an ability of speakers to reproduce and/or focus the panning and localization clues that are put into recordings through the mastering process.

Rob

When it's a construct by a component that alters the cues in the recording you mention. You should read things in context .

david

 

[Robh3606]

When it's a construct by a component that alters the cues in the recording you mention. You should read things in context .

Ok I am coming into this late. So exactly what are you talking about?? What component have you found to do this?? We are not talking about a 2 channel to surround matrix rendering so where would this happen?? Can you link the previous thread?? Found it!!

Rob

 

[ddk]

No, David, you are trying to twist clear definitions to your own biases.

to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:

very exact:

So, when someone is saying a system has pinpoint imaging they are referring to the localization and the EXACTNESS of that localization that a system creates in the users mind's eye.

What you are trying to refer to, I think, is the CAUSE of pinpoint imaging and suggesting that it is always a flaw in a system because it has very exact imaging.

You are convoluting the thing itstelf (pinpoint imaging) and it's cause (coloration/distortion etc.).

You're ignoring context again Brad, ppi as suggested in my initial post is a coloration and a construct of certain components irrespective of the recordings. I'm not twisting the definition of PPI it's context which you completely ignore. It reminds me of a previous situation which you want to dictate the definition of a term to me.

david

 

[ddk]

Ok I am coming into this late. So exactly what are you talking about?? What component have you found to do this?? We are not talking about a 2 channel to surround matrix rendering so where would this happen?? Can you link the previous thread?? Found it!!

Rob

It started in this thread post#1586, you need to read further from that point, I also clarified in several posts that the ppi phenomenon I mentioned has nothing to do with the stereo image, it's a coloration introduced by a component.

david

 

[ddk]

No, David, you are trying to twist clear definitions to your own biases.

to find out or say the exact position in space or time of something:

very exact:

So, when someone is saying a system has pinpoint imaging they are referring to the localization and the EXACTNESS of that localization that a system creates in the users mind's eye.

What you are trying to refer to, I think, is the CAUSE of pinpoint imaging and suggesting that it is always a flaw in a system because it has very exact imaging.

You are convoluting the thing itstelf (pinpoint imaging) and it's cause (coloration/distortion etc.).

What terminology do you use for a fake constructed pin pointed image Brad?

david

 

[morricab]

You're ignoring context again Brad, ppi as suggested in my initial post is a coloration and a construct of certain components irrespective of the recordings. I'm not twisting the definition of PPI it's context which you completely ignore. It reminds me of a previous situation which you want to dictate the definition of a term to me.

david

Again, you are talking about causes not the definition of PPI. I would agree that if it is like that with every recording then it is likely due to a system flaw and I said this in the other thread more than once. However, you saying that PPI is ALWAYS due to a flaw is not correct, IMO.

 

[morricab]

What terminology do you use for a fake constructed pin pointed image Brad?

david

If you qualify it as fake, then that is a different discussion...how can you say if it is fake or not without knowing the system? If someone says they get pinpoint imaging, that doesn't necessarily immediately imply all the things you have packaged into this.

 

[Al M.]

Pinpoint imaging is just that:
Getting the performer's image down to a relatively small point, and with exact outlines.

This is not necessarily due to coloration by components, cables etc., but can be a function of the speakers.

My previous two monitors, Ensemble Reference and Reference 3A MM DeCapo BE, gave mostly pinpoint imaging regardless of toe in, i.e. also with full toe out. This was also pretty independent of electronics and cables.

My current monitors, Reference 3A Reflector, give pinpoint imaging with pronounced toe in, and less to no pinpoint imaging with toe out, either complete or severe (i.e. just a few degrees of toe in). I prefer the toe out with little to no pinpoint imaging.

 

[Robh3606]

It started in this thread post#1586, you need to read further from that point, I also clarified in several posts that the ppi phenomenon I mentioned has nothing to do with the stereo image, it's a coloration introduced by a component.

Hello David

If your point is that it is an artificial construct that does not, will not, and never has occurred in any live music I have ever attended I couldn't agree more. It's fun and it makes for a more enjoyable listening experience. On a personal note I have switched out HF horns in my mains in my HT to purposely " unfocus" the imagery as I found them to be a bit much.

As far as a coloration from a component that I am not seeing that unless you consider the horns polar characteristics as a coloration. Actually the horn with better textbook polar plots was the "offender".

More reading to do.

Rob

 

[ddk]

If you qualify it as fake, then that is a different discussion...how can you say if it is fake or not without knowing the system? If someone says they get pinpoint imaging, that doesn't necessarily immediately imply all the things you have packaged into this.

That's why I keep bringing on context, you can read the post I used the term in a negative sense and tried to clarify as a coloration after Tim's post. This is an international community vocabulary and terminology have different meanings to different people and we have to deal with it. This is a simple thing, we agree on the meaning of ppi but without knowing the context it can be a positive to some and a negative to others. I see it as a negative in terms of natural sound.

Maybe Tom should expand on his question, it's not the definition of ppi that we disagree on but wether thinks it's a positive thing or a negative one.

david

 

[morricab]

Hello David

If your point is that it is an artificial construct that does not, will not, and never has occurred in any live music I have ever attended I couldn't agree more. It's fun and it makes for a more enjoyable listening experience. On a personal note I have switched out HF horns in my mains in my HT to purposely " unfocus" the imagery as I found them to be a bit much.

As far as a coloration from a component that I am not seeing that unless you consider the horns polar characteristics as a coloration. Actually the horn with better textbook polar plots was the "offender".

More reading to do.

Rob

It has to be kept in mind the recording itself. They can have pinpoint imaging due to how they are miked and mixed. If you sit close enough live then the imaging can be quite specific.

 

[Al M.]

It has to be kept in mind the recording itself. They can have pinpoint imaging due to how they are miked and mixed. If you sit close enough live then the imaging can be quite specific.

The question remains if it's actually on the recording or not. It could be, but it could also be an artifact of speaker reproduction:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sublime-sound.12853/page-76#post-665779

 

[morricab]

That's why I keep bringing on context, you can read the post I used the term in a negative sense and tried to clarify as a coloration after Tim's post. This is an international community vocabulary and terminology have different meanings to different people and we have to deal with it. This is a simple thing, we agree on the meaning of ppi but without knowing the context it can be a positive to some and a negative to others. I see it as a negative in terms of natural sound.

Maybe Tom should expand on his question, it's not the definition of ppi that we disagree on but wether thinks it's a positive thing or a negative one.

david

I understand what you mean but I don't see how you can, a priori, say if pinpoint imaging is a positive or a negative thing. Maybe because your system doesn't do it under any circumstances you then have a bias that says if it does have pinpoint imaging it must be wrong? I would again reiterate that it should really depend on the recording and some recordings indeed have pinpoint imaging and soundstaging.